Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

A few 84/98's


trajan

Recommended Posts

Thanks for taking the time to check on this one. The last part of the marking is Cob.

Here's a 84/98aA next to a 71/84 which has been converted for use as a sidearm, most of the shaping looks to take place at about where the crossguard intersects with the blade spine.

It seems odd that the original 71/84 unit markings wouldn't have been removed, but considering both my and MSDT's example are missing the first part of the marking this looks to be a definite possibility in some instances. I'd bet on MSDT's marking as being for a Recruiting Regiment as the remnant of the foot of the first R looks to be flat and doesn't turn up like I see on most of the italic R's. There's a 84/98aA in Williams pt 1 marked 6.R.R.29 in a similar font.

'Cob' for Coblenz is certainly the most obvious suggestion.

Thanks for showing those two together, which makes it clear how much grinding had to be done to get that crossguard down to shape, and of course indicates that some of the original markings may well be scrubbed off and so what survives might well be incomplete.

FWIW, I dug into all the unfinished pile of papers on my desk and found a transcript of what was posted in DVE 281 (1910) for the change from the 71/84 to the 84/98:

"Das Seitengewehr 84/98 ist ein umgeändertes Seitengewehr 71/84; es hat einen neuen Griffkopf nebst Haltestift, Haltestiftmutter und Haltefeder vom S. 98 und eine geänderte Parierstange - Wegfall der Bohrung für den Mundring des Laufmantels - zum Aufpflanzen auf die Schußwaffen 98."

My non-literal translation of that is:

"The S.84/98 is the altered version of the S.71/84; it has a new pommel together with the press-stud retaining system of the S.98 and an altered crossguard - with the muzzle ring mounting removed - to fit to the 98 series of firearms."

Julian

EDIT: Should have added that this passage is on a "Deckblatt", a pasted insert, as the DV 281 (NOT DVE) was issued before the S.84/98 a.A. was introduced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally got one!!! Hurrah. A 1917 dated example byJ A Henckels.

It has CROWN / W / 17 / fraktur mark at top of blade.

It has two stick men doing the Egyptian dance plus L A Henckels over Zwei something werks? on one side of blade. Correct scabbard with screw above frog tang. Some black paint finish remains to scabbard. Nice clean unmarked blade. £95 paid????

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were two to tempt me....actually three. One no marks at all except fraktur marks. Maker and date absent. Ruled out.

1. 1915 Erfurt. Went to buy but it had sold whilst I dithered / shopped about.

2. As above, the one purchased.

The Erfurt was £75. Not so nice condition but and I did not know this it had a Bavarian fraktur mark. I was told this only after I had missed out. However I like the one I have. Nice wood furniture, grip screws on right side etc. Small fraktur mark top of pommel and release catch smooth and working.

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally got one!!! Hurrah. A 1917 dated example byJ A Hen(c)kels. ... Some black paint finish remains to scabbard. ... £95 paid????

Happy day then! And I'll raise a beer for you! These are nice looking bayonets, and they are to my mind, along with the S.71, the P.1888 and P.1903, and the Swedish M.1896, probably the nicest looking of all the bayonets from the GW period

The ZWEI in the second line is actually the start of 'ZWILLINGSWERK', the 'Twins (or 'Gemini') manufactury' if you like - hence the dancing Egyptian laddies (I like that!). On several of these the blade was maker-stamped before the crossguard was attached, and so is often barely visible. Carter has W/16 and W/17 recorded, with W/17 being the 'most' productive period for these Henckel ones. I have one like your W/17 plus two that are W/16. Of these only the W/17 has the ZWILLINGSWERK mark almost obscured, so a period thing? One of the W/16's is unit-marked to a Flakzug unit...

The black painted scabbard sounds like it might have come from Europe... My experience is that Central (former Eastern) European sellers often dress the scabbards up this way... The B*s*a*d*... :devilgrin:

There were two to tempt me....actually three. One no marks at all except fraktur marks. Maker and date absent. Ruled out.

1. 1915 Erfurt. Went to buy but it had sold whilst I dithered / shopped about.

2. As above, the one purchased.

The Erfurt was £75. Not so nice condition but and I did not know this it had a Bavarian fraktur mark. I was told this only after I had missed out. However I like the one I have. Nice wood furniture, grip screws on right side etc. Small fraktur mark top of pommel and release catch smooth and working.

A fair few of the 84/98's don't have the full Abnahmensstempel, with the cypher and year mark, and are usually thought to be very early products - Spring-Summer of 1915. I'll check later, but IIRC, the fraktur marks on the blade spine are different from those on the pommel...

An Erfurt bayonet with a Bavarian 'fraktur? That would be odd...

Now looking forward to photographs - I like them as - to quote Cromwell - warts and all! I alsways do the minimum of peventative work on mine rather than clean them up 'good and proper like'!

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Julian, I agree re cleaning. All I have done is a light rub with WD 40 and some neutral polish on the wood to add a little sheen / life.

Re the scabbard the paint is almost worn to metal so not a repaint job. Well if it is has seen much wear and done ages ago?

TT

What about the price I paid. About right?


And it fits my Kar 98 a treat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i have no idea on prices where you are... Sawdoc Aleck has the measure on that sort of thing. I did buy one in the UK (my unit-marked one) for GBP 150, but over here anything German and unusual such as a 84/98 is nearer the equivalent of GBP 200...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Happy day then! And I'll raise a beer for you! These are nice looking bayonets, and they are to my mind, along with the S.71, the P.1888 and P.1903, and the Swedish M.1896, probably the nicest looking of all the bayonets from the GW period

The ZWEI in the second line is actually the start of 'ZWILLINGSWERK', the 'Twins (or 'Gemini') manufactury' if you like - hence the dancing Egyptian laddies (I like that!). On several of these the blade was maker-stamped before the crossguard was attached, and so is often barely visible. Carter has W/16 and W/17 recorded, with W/17 being the 'most' productive period for these Henckel ones. I have one like your W/17 plus two that are W/16. Of these only the W/17 has the ZWILLINGSWERK mark almost obscured, so a period thing? One of the W/16's is unit-marked to a Flakzug unit...

The black painted scabbard sounds like it might have come from Europe... My experience is that Central (former Eastern) European sellers often dress the scabbards up this way... The B*s*a*d*... :devilgrin:

A fair few of the 84/98's don't have the full Abnahmensstempel, with the cypher and year mark, and are usually thought to be very early products - Spring-Summer of 1915. I'll check later, but IIRC, the fraktur marks on the blade spine are different from those on the pommel...

An Erfurt bayonet with a Bavarian 'fraktur? That would be odd...

Now looking forward to photographs - I like them as - to quote Cromwell - warts and all! I alsways do the minimum of peventative work on mine rather than clean them up 'good and proper like'!

Julian

Hmmmm, for me the 98/05 Butchers Bayonet is nicer I think than the 84/98.

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, yes, I do like the 98/05's also... I certainly have twice (or more) as many of them as I have of 84/98's, but I am in any case leaning more and more to restricting my collecting to the German Imperials. Even so, somehow the 84/98's (and the 71/84's) appeal more than the others - maybe because they were restricted in issue? Cavalry, specialist troops (including) stormtroopers, etc? Or just on aesthetic grounds - because they look less of a "blunt object" type of weapon? Whooops, getting philosophical! :blink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TT,

sounds like you got a nice bayonet there mate :) ,I like the henkels symbol, think I have one stashed away from the missus;)

£95 seems OK to me, they vary from around the 75 example that you looked at to over 100 depending on maker, reg markings, condition etc..

You posting any pics of it?

Julian,

Got some more new additions Inc eb34,eb49, Wilkinson pall mall P107 in great condition & reg marked transitional 98/05,

Will email you pics when back home for a couple of days at the end of next week,

Aleck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... sounds like you got a nice bayonet there mate :) ,I like the henkels symbol, think I have one stashed away from the missus;)

£95 seems OK to me, they vary from around the 75 example that you looked at to over 100 depending on maker, reg markings, condition etc.. ... Got some more new additions Inc eb34,eb49, Wilkinson pall mall P107 in great condition & reg marked transitional 98/05, Will email you pics when back home for a couple of days at the end of next week,

I'll try and do a photograph soon of my three baby Henckel 84/98's with their big brother 98/05. Yes, it is a nice symbol!

Nice to know what the rough price range is - and looking forward to seeing those new ones, Aleck - especially that PALL MALL and the transitional!

Julian

PS: I owe you an e-mail from Hogmanay - will try and get around to it tomorrow..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll try and do a photograph soon of my three baby Henckel 84/98's with their big brother 98/05. Yes, it is a nice symbol!

Here you go - and note how in the middle one in the second photograph the ZWILLINGSWERK is almost covered by the crossguard.

post-69449-0-26532200-1454333510_thumb.j post-69449-0-33439700-1454333520_thumb.j

I'll double-check on the frakturs at the weekend as kids about...

Trajan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My trawl through the transcripts I have of German regulations, etc., relevant to the S.84/98 (and other bayonets) is proceeding slowly... But here is one of interest that Carter was not aware of. In vol 2, p. 33, he states that "Altered Bavarian S 71/84 which by the time they were modified had been designated the Seitengewehr 84/98 are extremely rare". He gives one example, marked "B.5.R.E". He does note that according to Freidag that the Radfahrer of the Bavarian Infantry Regiments had the S.84/98, as did their Jaeger and Schuetzen units, along with Transport and Trials troops.

However, the transcript I have of a Bavarian document of 13 October 1910 (Nr. 14619, from Feldzeugmeisterei to the K. Kriegsministerium) regarding the equipment of the 1st and 2nd Brigades of the Bavarian Landwehr-Infanterie indicates that that the Radfaehrer in these units were likewise issued with S.84/98 a.A:

"2.) Bei Ausstattung dieser Brigade mit G.88.05 müssen auch die Radfahrer dieser Brigaden K.98 u.S.84.98 erhalten. Die benötigte Anzahl - 96 K.98 u.96 S.84.98 - ist von der Gwf. abzugeben."

"2) For the equipment of these Brigades with the Gew.88/05 the cyclists of these brigades must receive the Kar.98 and the S.84/98. The necessary number - 96 Kar.98 and 96 S.84/98 - is to be provided by the (?)Gewehr-Feldzeugmeisterei(?)."

No, I am not certain what "Gwf" is... However, as the date of this instruction is October 1910, then these must be S.84/98 a.A. - the documentary evidence is clear that the S.84/98 n.A. was not in service use until early 1915, and so probably only began to be made in late 1914 after the Kaiser's instructions that November to arm the cavalry with the "S84/98".

Trajan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TT,

sounds like you got a nice bayonet there mate :) ,I like the henkels symbol, think I have one stashed away from the missus;)

£95 seems OK to me, they vary from around the 75 example that you looked at to over 100 depending on maker, reg markings, condition etc..

You posting any pics of it?

Julian,

Got some more new additions Inc eb34,eb49, Wilkinson pall mall P107 in great condition & reg marked transitional 98/05,

Will email you pics when back home for a couple of days at the end of next week,

Aleck

Hi, Thanks for comments. Will post pictures asap. New camera and computer to work out.

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok here you go. Hopefully mastered computer and camera. New shoulder straps included.

TT

post-15846-0-99998000-1454415081_thumb.j

post-15846-0-39442400-1454415107_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another full image

post-15846-0-96220200-1454415434_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok here you go. Hopefully mastered computer and camera. New shoulder straps included.

TT

Very nice - one of my 'Twins' also has the light coloured grips! Oh, and it's also the W/17 one with the 'ZWILLINGSWERK' stamp obscured - middle one in lower post at no. 86 above! Standards were slipping, supplies of the proper (walnut?) wood getting scarcer so substitutes in use...

Julian

(And stop teasing me with those shoulder tabs... Yes, I am interested, if only to get ones to match my unit-marked bayonets... I guess than in general they are still cheaper than bayonets - and they clearly take up less room and also are less dangerous to have around with my two boys... And so I would love to know of a reliable supplier,)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... the transcript I have of a Bavarian document of 13 October 1910 (Nr. 14619, from Feldzeugmeisterei to the K. Kriegsministerium) regarding the equipment of the 1st and 2nd Brigades of the Bavarian Landwehr-Infanterie indicates that that the Radfaehrer in these units were likewise issued with S.84/98 a.A:

"2.) Bei Ausstattung dieser Brigade mit G.88.05 müssen auch die Radfahrer dieser Brigaden K.98 u.S.84.98 erhalten. Die benötigte Anzahl - 96 K.98 u.96 S.84.98 - ist von der Gwf. ... as the date of this instruction is October 1910, then these must be S.84/98 a.A. ...

More work on the archives, as it were - i.e., a bit more progress that may be of interest to some. The Bavarian DV 281 is titled 'Die Seitengewehr der Truppen zu Fuss: Nach der gleichnamigen preussische Vorschrift' (= the Prussian DVE 185, of January 1909), and it was "genehmigt" or approved 27 07 1910 (KBKM Nr. 13311), and issued 22 09 1910. What is significant is that it does NOT mention the S.84/98, and so I assume as a working hypothesis that this is also not mentioned in the Prussian DVE 185, which was presumably prepared in 1908. So, this looks to be part of the documentary evidence that provided Carter with his conclusion that the decision to convert the stocks of S.71/84 to become the S.84/98 a.A. was indeed made in 1908-09 but clearly too late to warrant an inclusion in DVE 185 of early 1909 OR the Bavarian DV 281, issued almost a full year later.

True, he quotes other evidence for the process beginning in March 1909 - but without supplying supporting references for these, so I was pleased to find this one. (You all know me, I like to have supporting documentation for 'statements of fact'! Hence my pride in being a POF!!!)

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm pleased with it. About 6 months ago I nearly bought a Moven ? Werks example. I was put off by the blade which was a different shape to all others I had seen. Fuller. I know now it is a makers variation. It was £160 so as I only really want an example (he says) I'm sure my £95 is the job! That said a 1915 one!!!

Re shoulder straps. No supplier per say. You have to scour Internet and fairs etc. There are copies. Getting privy now mind.

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm pleased with it. About 6 months ago I nearly bought a Moven ? Werks example. I was put off by the blade which was a different shape to all others I had seen. Fuller. I know now it is a makers variation. It was £160 so as I only really want an example (he says) I'm sure my £95 is the job! That said a 1915 one!!!

Re shoulder straps. No supplier per say. You have to scour Internet and fairs etc. There are copies. Getting privy now mind.

TT

Yes, well, on the first - but one of those is for the really dedicated of collectors only... of course, if one came my way then I'd grab it!

OK on the second, I'll look around, thanks - it might keep 'SWMBO' happier if I can hang something up in a glass case somewhere as proof of 'money well spent, dear, honest!' :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another bit from the archives...

I noted in post 87 how Carter vol 2, p. 33, states, on the basis of his experience, that Bavarian S.84/98 a.A are "extremely rare" - he only recorded one marked example,'B.5.R.E.' In that post I also mentioned how the archives show that these were provided for Landwehr cyclists, so perhaps unit-marked ones for these may exist? Whatever, at the same place Carter goes on to talk about the discussion in Bavaria over what bayonets should be provided for the men of the Bavarian Luftschiffer-Abteilung and how they received, in the end the kS.98, and he notes two examples unit-marked for them, 'B.L.A.1.101' and 'B.L.A.1.120'.

Well, from the archives, it is clear that the Bavarian Fliegerkompagnie were issued with the Kar.98 and also the S.84/98. So says instruction Nr 5533, dated 15. März 1912, issued by the Bavarian Kriegsministerium, stating that "His Royal Highness Prince Luitpold, regent of the Kingdom of Bavaria,in accordance with the Reich Law of 27 March 1911", had resolved that on the 14 March 1912:

"6. Die Fliegerkompagnie wird mit Karabiner 98 und mit Seitengewehr 84/98 bewaffnet. Waffen und Munition stellt die Feldzeugmeisterei bereit. "

"6. The Fliegerkompagnie will be armed with the Kar.98 and the S.84/98. Weapons and ammunition to be supplied by the Feldzeugmeisterei"

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

... It seems odd that the original 71/84 unit markings wouldn't have been removed, but considering both my and MSDT's example are missing the first part of the marking this looks to be a definite possibility in some instances. ...

Further conformation of crossguard re-shaping of the 71/84 to become a 84/98 a.A., in the process removing a part of a unit marking. My dealer buddy sent me this photograph of a 84/98 a.A. where there is clearly something missing (a number?) from before the full stop before the 'R'.

post-69449-0-57582800-1455794025_thumb.j

I guess it was evidence like this that Carter relied on for his statement that the unit marks on 84/98's are those from when the bayonet was still a 71/84...

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good example. The missing part of the marking would be the regimental number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gew 88/05, that's what I thought, a missing regimental number.

I always thought that I was lucky in that my sole example of one of these (post 55) still has the complete sequence. BUT, in the light of these posts on re-shaping the crossguard, and having looked at it more closely, what I thought was '10.R.7.125', and so Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich Wilhelm II (1.Schlesisches) Nr.10, is perhaps more probably (from the curve of the '1', which matches the '7' for the company number) to be a partially erased number and so it is '70.R.7.125', the 8. Rheinisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 70.

We live and learn...

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Further conformation of crossguard re-shaping of the 71/84 to become a 84/98 a.A., in the process removing a part of a unit marking. My dealer buddy sent me this photograph of a 84/98 a.A. where there is clearly something missing (a number?) from before the full stop before the 'R'. ... I guess it was evidence like this that Carter relied on for his statement that the unit marks on 84/98's are those from when the bayonet was still a 71/84...

Well, I was 'Caught between Heaven and the Highway' on this one, the highway in this case being a need to pay to travel somewhere to do some other research... But, I finally gave in, so here it is - and although I say it myself, it is certainly one of the nicest of my 84/98's a.A. examples...

So, a W/87 WKC, one of the first of the bunch of 71/84's, of which - according to Carter, the only friend I need here - a scant few only were marked 'R.E.', as this one is. Yes, I know wishful thinking - but could be / maybe! Whatever, something 'R.E.3.45'. And I do have a 71/84 scabbard that is marked for a RE unit (55.R.E.2.195) and which presently has an non-RE unit-marked 84/98 a.A in it ("10" OR "70.R.7.125"), and so I might do a swop - but only after checking the locket frakturs to see if it is a WKC scabbard!

What I do like about this particular one - amongst other things - are the 'frakturs' on the tang and the very careful brazing showing on the upper side and the not-so-careful brazing underneath. It also has nice frakturs on the grip screws and press stud - these need some study as interestingly enough, I have just noticed that the spine fraktur on this one is a different letter and stamp from the only other WKC W/87 a.A. that I have, and so I need to do a bit of research there - Google might throw up some others???!!!

Trajan

post-69449-0-61521400-1464099672_thumb.j post-69449-0-29738700-1464099684_thumb.j post-69449-0-55876000-1464099701_thumb.j post-69449-0-70609800-1464099713_thumb.j post-69449-0-37339700-1464099737_thumb.j post-69449-0-06516700-1464099758_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

Just to bring my bayonet collection up to date for you all (SWMBO and kids have gone to Istanbul for a holiday!)...

 

This W/17 S.84/98 n.A. came to me courtesy of Forum Pal Sawdoc, and it is a nice example of a rather rare type, being a Gottlieb Hammersfahr/Bayard product. Carter vol 2, p.182, has a bit on the Bayard establishment, or Anciens Establissements Pieper, and notes how their mounted knight trademark is found on S.14 blades and for S.84/98 for 1917 only (as with this one), with Gottlieb/Hammersfahr. But Williams, vol 1, 501-502, shows examples dated W/16... 

 

'Bayard' were making guns and the like before 1914, but I am not certain about bayonets...In fact from the web it seems there is not that much known about these ones, although Forum Pal Tony has an interesting UNDATED one - here at no. 13: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/215509-german-capture-1889-belgian-mauser/ (Tony, is that Bayard alone or is it a Gottlieb Hammersfahr also?)

 

 

Anyway, to mine..

 

 

GWF 009A.jpg

GWF 010A.jpg

GWF 012A.jpg

GWF 013A.jpg

GWF 014A.jpg

Edited by trajan
Spelling...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...