trajan Posted 17 September , 2015 Share Posted 17 September , 2015 I have to admit to a certain fondness for the GW period 84/98 n.A.'s - well, I have six now, but only four in Turkey, the other two being in the UK waiting to be brought over here... So I thought I'd show the ones that I have, albeit nothing especially fantastic among them, but all good examples of their kind. First up - a J.A.HENKELS / ZWILLINGSWERK, W/16, fraktur 'C', but 'G' on the pommel. This one is crossguard-marked FLZ 1036, for Flak-Zuge Waffe 1036; mis-matched scabbard marked: UV.3.72 for Unteroffizier-Vorschule Kompagnie 3 Waffe 72. I have shown and discussed this before (with photographs of the markings) at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207144 and also at http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208575&page=1entry2062202 post 25 onwards. Now that I know weapons were consecutively marked when issued to units I am happy with the high serial number. Only other thing of note is an illegible fraktur on the scabbard finial. Note, incidentally, that the grips have been replaced on this one with the screws the wrong way round... Second up is a bit of a rarity, as it still has its sawback. It is GEBRUDER HELLER / MAREINTHAL and ERFURT product, no spine marking except a weak and faint fraktur and another faint fraktur on the pommel. According to Carter II, 181, all the joint Heller/Erfurt ones are sawbacks. The scabbard of this one has been heavily over-painted, but there looks to be a fraktur on the pommel. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 September , 2015 The third is simply marked ERFURT on the right ricasso, but there is what seems to be the trace of a letter on the bottom of the left ricasso so something has perhaps been scrubbed off there - in which case probably HELLER again. Spine marked W/15, and fraktur 'O', and a clear but uncertain as yet fraktur on the pommel - possibly a strange 'V'. There is also a number '3' between the 'ears'. The left crossguard is marked '6.14', but that is not a German-type marking, and the scabbard finial is marked '45', with traces of two sets of unit marks at the top near the mouth... The fourth one is a GEBR. / HARTKOPF / SOLINGEN with H.MUNDLOSS & CO. / MAGDEBURG, a mark recorded by Williams, II, 503, but not by Carter. This is spine-marked W/16 with a very unusual fraktur 'B' (with a cedilla!), the same fraktur apparently being on the pommel. There is also a fraktur on the scabbard finial, and as can be seen, the scabbard has recently been painted (this came with a WW2 frog), so any ideas as to how to remove that are welcome! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 17 September , 2015 Share Posted 17 September , 2015 Very nice Julian, I don't have a 84/98, although I am looking. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 17 September , 2015 Share Posted 17 September , 2015 Me too. It's elusive but should not be. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 September , 2015 Thanks Khaki and TT! The first one of those here came from the good old UK, the others from Bulgaria, Poland and Turkey, thanks to a Turkish collecting friend who looks out for Imperial Germans for me, while I return the favour by looking out for Ottomans and P.1907's for him! The sawback above is a bit of a rarity as the S.84/98 n.A. was in widespread service use by the end of the GW and so a fair few naturally lost their saws in 1917 or so. And the unit-marked one is also a bit of a rarity, as the 84/98 n.A. began to be produced after Spring 1915, when unit-marking had officially ceased - but having said that, I understand from the grapevine that there are possibly more of these marked to Flak units than to any other type of unit - excepting cavalry, of course. But, yes, the 84/98 as a whole is rather uncommon, so good hunting! It was always in short supply if in great demand. Accurate figures are not easy to come by, but I understand from German sources that Bavaria received 15,000 of these in June 1918, and all were issued by September, and when they asked for more they were told they could only have 10,000 "as the stocks have been used up". There are figures for Saxony as to what bayonets were received 1914-1918, and while the kingdom received 89,287 98/05's mit Sage and 453,387 ohne Sage, they only got 13,058 84/98 m.S. and 48,319 o.S. The figures for Bavaria in May 1917 are somewhat similar in terms of relative proportions: 29,981 98/05's m.S. and 146,014 o.S., compared to 999 84/98's m.S. and 11,530 o.S. So, yes, much rarer than S.98/05's and even S.98's, and so somewhat elusive... Added to which, I suspect that they probably lacked the 'draw' of the 'Butcher' as souvenirs - especially those with a sawback - and so few were picked up and brought back???!!! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 21 September , 2015 Share Posted 21 September , 2015 The third is simply marked ERFURT on the right ricasso, but there is what seems to be the trace of a letter on the bottom of the left ricasso so something has perhaps been scrubbed off there - in which case probably HELLER again. Spine marked W/15, and fraktur 'O', and a clear but uncertain as yet fraktur on the pommel - possibly a strange 'V'. There is also a number '3' between the 'ears'. The left crossguard is marked '6.14', but that is not a German-type marking, and the scabbard finial is marked '45', with traces of two sets of unit marks at the top near the mouth... The fourth one is a GEBR. / HARTKOPF / SOLINGEN with H.MUNDLOSS & CO. / MAGDEBURG, a mark recorded by Williams, II, 503, but not by Carter. This is spine-marked W/16 with a very unusual fraktur 'B' (with a cedilla!), the same fraktur apparently being on the pommel. There is also a fraktur on the scabbard finial, and as can be seen, the scabbard has recently been painted (this came with a WW2 frog), so any ideas as to how to remove that are welcome! DSCN1706A.jpg DSCN1707A.jpg DSCN1708A.jpg Trajan Nice finds Julian, particularly that FLZ! As for the 6.14 on the cross guard, I believe this to be a GW period German marking (be it an unofficial one). In Carter's Vol III in reference to an EB58 Belgian ersatz marked 5.117 he states “Only one unofficially marked example has been recorded, but it probably only referred to the company and weapon number without identifying the unit.” Noll also lists a couple examples in his book and also identifies them as Komp & Waffe. Here's the few other examples marked in this manner I've found: EB3: 1.137 (w/ matching scabbard) EB35: 1.131. EB58: 5.117. 98/05 w15: 4.155 84/98n/A w17: 10.166 84/98n/A w17: 3.2 The other factor which makes me think these markings are wartime is that of the examples I’ve come across none have been on bayonets that received any of the post war German mod’s such as bluing or slots on the pommel button and grip screws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2015 ... As for the 6.14 on the cross guard... Carter's Vol III in reference to an EB58 Belgian ersatz marked 5.117 ... Noll also lists a couple examples in his book and also identifies them as Komp & Waffe. ... The other factor which makes me think these markings are wartime is that of the examples I’ve come across none have been on bayonets that received any of the post war German mod’s such as bluing or slots on the pommel button and grip screws. Thanks Josh, useful to know that! You certainly know your literature! And of course, the lack of any evidence for the usual post-GW use is telling... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2015 ... Second up is a bit of a rarity, as it still has its sawback. It is GEBRUDER HELLER / MAREINTHAL and ERFURT product... DSCN1709A (1).jpg DSCN1710A.jpg Well, I finally had a chance to start removing some of the gunge on the second one, and lo and behold, found to my surprise when cleaning around the end of the flashguard that the pommel section had been brazed onto the tang! I wondered if it might be a transitional of some kind - the first of the 84/98 n.A. were made using blade blanks from the 71/84 series. So I contacted Roy Williams who gave as his opinion: "I don't think it is a transitional, but it is strange to see these parts brazed ... I really have no idea why, maybe it was a badly forged part rejected and then repaired later when bayonets were needed to finish a contract? Either way it's interesting." 'Tis indeed... Wonder how many more are like this? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 23 September , 2015 Share Posted 23 September , 2015 This is interesting and something I noted from my examples. It has seemingly past without note in descriptions that I have read. Carter Vol.2. suggests all Imperial 84/98's were made with a one piece blade/tang/pommel, I don't from memory think Bruce Karem in 'The German S84/98 Bayonet Volume 1: 1908-1933 mentions it either. However my belief is that they could be a sort of transitional production technique, possibly around the time Erfurt ceased manufacture of bayonets in 1915. I have 3 examples, all nAS, all with this construction of brazed/separate pommel as per some S14 patterns. That they are all Erfurt/Heller must be significant. I have never seem a plain blade version using this method of construction except the Move Werke and Mehlich patterns albeit with a reinforce as on 84/98aA. 1. Erfurt/Gebr Heller Marienthal no date or cypher to blade back - Jag.R.3.524. These also have the 'rounded' end to bottom of grip/pommel as on yours. 2. As above -------------------------------------------------------------------- - B.2.s.R.2.2. 3.Gebr Heller Marienthal ONLY No date or cypher to blade back - M.G.K.601.24. Normal 'square' end to bottom grip/pommel. My best guess is that 1+2 are slightly earlier than 3 but they cover the transition of Erfurt ceasing production and handing manufacture over to the 'private sector'. A lot of conjecture here but that's all we have on occasion!! Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 September , 2015 This is interesting and something I noted from my examples. ... Hi Rolyboy, That is really interesting to know! I have to admit I was thinking transitional also, and was surprised Roy Williams did not seem to know of any parallels. Anyway, I'll forward this information to him and see what he comes back with. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 26 September , 2015 Share Posted 26 September , 2015 Hi Julian and all others,. Finally found an 84/98, Heller, Marienthal on ricasso and W17 on spine, small (tiny) mark on flat of pommel (rounded) looks like an L (fractur), Guard marked on right side 3.2. khaki Sorry, tried to get a full length photo, even went outdoors, but the mosquitoes chased me back inside, I will try again earlier in the day. (k) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2015 Well done! Slightly different font for the numbers from what I have on mine, but very close to what I have on an otherwise unmarked 98/05. Now, the key question with yours - a brazed tongue-in-grove joint between pommel and tang? That will be interesting to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 26 September , 2015 Share Posted 26 September , 2015 I had a close look, but there is no sign of brazing. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2015 I had a close look, but there is no sign of brazing. In a sense that figures as yours is a W/17, and the brazed ones are all cipher- and date-less, giving rise to the suggestion that they are all early, so 1915. But that is, let's face it, just an assumption! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 27 September , 2015 Share Posted 27 September , 2015 Well, I finally had a chance to start removing some of the gunge on the second one, and lo and behold, found to my surprise when cleaning around the end of the flashguard that the pommel section had been brazed onto the tang! rw 06.jpg rw 07.JPG rw 05.jpg I wondered if it might be a transitional of some kind - the first of the 84/98 n.A. were made using blade blanks from the 71/84 series. So I contacted Roy Williams who gave as his opinion: "I don't think it is a transitional, but it is strange to see these parts brazed ... I really have no idea why, maybe it was a badly forged part rejected and then repaired later when bayonets were needed to finish a contract? Either way it's interesting." 'Tis indeed... Wonder how many more are like this? Trajan Interesting variation, surprising this isn't mentioned in any reference material. I took a look at my 84/98's and they've got the standard construction. Here's another undated Erfurt/Heller from a closed ebay auction which is brazed though: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2015 Thanks Josh., that's a useful addition to the 'data base'' as it were! Despite what RW says, now that there are more of them coming out of the woodwork I tend to agree with Rolyboy11, that as I originally wondered with my example, those with a brazed tongue-in-groove pommel and tang construction are transitional ones, most logically from early 1915. The reason for thinking that time period is that technologically speaking(!) they are 'early' rather than 'late'; and also the dates of the orders regarding the issue of these 84/98's to the cavalry, 09 11 14 being the Kaiser's 'request' that this be done, and the K.Pr. Kriegs Ministerium order of 28 11 14 that they be issued into service as from January 1915. In connection with this latter order, IIRC, is the remark that Carter cited about cavalry troopers having bayonets with 'massiven Metalgriff', which have to be Ersatz of some form... Best wishes, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 28 September , 2015 Share Posted 28 September , 2015 I think the other possible thought relating to when these were manufactured is their similarity to many S14's. These use two methods of manufacture ie. reinforced tongue and groove, as seen on Bayard patterns (and 84/98aA), what might be thought of as unreinforced as in these 84/98's. I don't remember ever seeing a one piece construction for these .......?? William's page 531 shows examples. As the period of early manufacture for both was around the same, very late 14 through 1915, it seems logical to think that this was a simpler method of construction used until the better,stronger but more complex to manufacture one piece casting came 'on line'. As I said I think it relates to allowing non specialist companies to manufacture bayonets, allowing the likes of Erfurt arsenal to move all its efforts on to rifles, carbines etc. Atb Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 28 September , 2015 Share Posted 28 September , 2015 Julian, looks like you german collection is coming along very well there mate, you are picking up some real nice bayonets over in turkey, sawbacks & rare reg marked examples, you are having more luck than me bud USA or Turkey? Which country to relocate family to for sake of pointy/stabby things? Nearly sure my sawback is a marienthal but not sure on sawback removed example, be back home in a fortnight, so will dig them out & get sone pics for comparison on brazing etc. Aleck BTW anyone got any info on double maker marked 71/84? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2015 I think the other possible thought relating to when these were manufactured is their similarity to many S14's. ... As the period of early manufacture for both was around the same, very late 14 through 1915, it seems logical to think that this was a simpler method of construction used until the better,stronger but more complex to manufacture one piece casting came 'on line'. As I said I think it relates to allowing non specialist companies to manufacture bayonets, allowing the likes of Erfurt arsenal to move all its efforts on to rifles, carbines etc. You make a good point there Rolyboy. Certainly, the similarity in the manner of fixing pommel to tang to the earlier 71.84 and to what was being done with certain of the S.14's points to - shall we say - a lack of experience in single casting. Off-hand, my memory is that most of the early 84.98's were made by firms new to the work. looks like you german collection is coming along very well there mate ... you are having more luck than me bud USA or Turkey? Which country to relocate family to for sake of pointy/stabby things? Nearly sure my sawback is a marienthal but not sure on sawback removed example, be back home in a fortnight, so will dig them out & get sone pics for comparison on brazing etc. ... BTW anyone got any info on double maker marked 71/84? Thanks Aleck - the collection is improving in some areas only through the help (at a cost) of a customs agent, who gets in for me from outside of Turkey the ones I want to improve the collection as a whole... Yes, means using dealers. but I have just about exhausted what can be found easily in Turkey - for example, almost all the butcher blades here are WAFFENFABRIK W/17, so to get a W/16 or W/18, I need to look outside. Customs dues and 'extras' DOES add a fair bit to the unit cost, but worth it for those ones that are rare to see in the local markets... As for collecting bayonets in general, well, to judge from Mojosh and others - US of A! Mind you, how about France? There seem to be quite a load going around there! It will be nice to know what your 84/98's are, sawbacks or not: but from what I have learnt all the HELLER / ERFURT ones seem to be sawbacks. Now, a 71/84 with double maker-marks? There are some W/87 and W/89 WK&C / ERFURT ones, and also some W/88 COPPEL / ERFURT ones, but those are the only ones that I am aware of. What have you got? And what, in any case, have you been getting over the past few months!!! Bet you have a fair few nice ones hiding away! Best wishes, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 29 September , 2015 Share Posted 29 September , 2015 Julian, aint got this 71/84 yet (monthly payday on friday, so new allowance for pointy things ) but an 87 dated Alex Coppel & Soemmerda example with leather scabbard in nice condition. Picked up a few since last posts mainly common EBs but also got an 86 dated Alex Coppel/Erfurt 1st type 84/98, 87 dated WKC 71/84 (that might be going if decide on the double maker 71/84),EB19, EB49, EB50, EB55, couple of S14, another P1903, remmington P1913 (not blued) & couple of miscellaneous bits (like what looks like a bubba conversion by welding a muzzle ring to cut back original open MR of one of the commoner EB versions but aint had time to check it out yet)that will try & get pics of when next back home. Cheers Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2015 Just to update on this 71/84 of Alecks... Carter vol II only lists the following double-marked ones: W/87 and W/89 WK&C / ERFURTW/88 COPPEL / ERFURT Haven't checked Williams yet... A COPPEL / SOEMMERADA would be a bit odd, as SOEMMERADA-marked 71/84's were made in 1888, 1889, and 1890, and I can't think why an established 71/84 maker at Solingen would have made one part of a 71/84 for another maker of the 71/84 at Soemmerada (Dreyse?), near Erfurt, to complete - or vice-versa. Not impossible, I know, but rather odd. AND, looking forward to seeing the others! Julian EDIT I can add from Williams an 1891 SOEMMERADA, but no COPPEL / SOEMMERADA that I could see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2015 Back onto 84/98's... Another 84/98 n.A.m.S has just entered my collection, but I am off to Capapdocia for 10 days tomorrow, so unless the sun is good early in the morning, then I won't get a chance to do photographs until I get back. However, it is an interesting one, came with the right but entirely black-painted scabbard, and a frog with a '1918' or '1919' date mark on the back, nothing else I could see. The crossguard has been scrubbed, and so I think it may have been marked originally. No date, no monogram, just a fraktur. And the maker's mark is DEUTSCHE MASCHINENFABRIK. What IS odd is that the blade looks to have been blued... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 October , 2015 Here it is, on the top, with the HELLER / ERFURT for comparison... Note how what seems to be blueing has worn of near the sharp end where this has scraped against that nasty dent in the scabbard and, I assume, from the bayonet retaining springs. The frog that came with this is dated 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 One more no-sawback addition came today, a J.A.HENCKELS, W/17, so a rather common maker/year combination, but a nice clear example of the 'twins' stamp - and I have a 'big brother S.98/05 to pair with it!. It needs some TLC, but has a nice scabbard. Photographs to come when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 31 October , 2015 Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Nice one Trajan, your collection is expanding at an astonishing rate! Will be good to see photos. I always smile when i see a JA Henckels shop in town - and nice that they haven't changed their logo since WW1. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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