help badly needed.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Going back to Mick's original post;

62c E 450 E 650 N

= a.9.3

But we don't know which 1000 yd square!

All we have is 62c.E.[n]. a.9.3 where [n] is one of 36

[TEW]

Some of the western F squares could well have British burials. I just thought F23/24 were getting too Far East for British burials. F13, 19 and 25 are OK but 23/24. They are another 4/5 Km to the east.

The more concentration sheets you look at the more E/F errors you see. There are attempts to correct some by over typing, presumably replacing an F with an E but one never knows!!

TEW

[KevinBattle]

Not wanting to spoil this but in Howards Post #38 there is a body density map and the coordinates for the grave of Lt Moore seem to be somewhere in the triangle bounded by the railway and the road between Villiers and Ste Emilie.

Given that 2 graves/remains were recovered in that Concentration Report, there is one square marked that has "2" slightly north of the railway line.

The only other sites with 2 bodies seem to be much further away.

Could that be the site where Lt Moore and the Unknown Private were recovered from?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Not wanting to spoil this but in Howards Post #38 there is a body density map and the coordinates for the grave of Lt Moore seem to be somewhere in the triangle bounded by the railway and the road between Villiers and Ste Emilie.

Given that 2 graves/remains were recovered in that Concentration Report, there is one square marked that has "2" slightly north of the railway line.

The only other sites with 2 bodies seem to be much further away.

Could that be the site where Lt Moore and the Unknown Private were recovered from?

I don't disagree with anything there.

What we don't know is how far to the east of St Emilie they were killed.

The yellow cross in post#22 is probably not too far away, but it could have been a bit further east again.

Howard's map (post #38) shows F.13, but only one body in subsquare a.

It would be nice to see the body density map of Square F to see if F.14.a had two bodies.

The original concentration reports say the bodies were in E.14 & E.15. which we all seem to think is erroneous.

If they had made an error and they really meant F.14 & F15- that would be 1-2000 yds NE of Saint Emilie, but in keeping with the descriprion of being between the railway and the road to Rousay (sic).

[johnboy]

Post #13

The report states ' Ulick urged 3 or 4 others to attemp it. They had scarcely got over the parapet when they all went down'.

Should we be looking for a square with 4 or 5 bodies found? I don't think so. If a cross had been erected it suggests that his and other bodies had been removed from where they fell and buried in relative safety.

Post #44

The consentration sheet also shows -b.5.6

Could this be 62c.f.24.b.5.6.?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Post #44

The consentration sheet also shows -b.5.6

Could this be 62c.f.24.b.5.6.?

Yes, we used this Rosetta Stone clue to confirm in Post #45 how the new co-ordinates translated into the old trench co-ordinates.

The co-ordinates however refer to 3 British burials, Greenbury, Fitzpatrick & Unknown, not to Ulick Moore

[TEW]

Snipped

Why would Moore have been initially identified as a Private? Where does 11105 come from - it's not a Service number for any of the 3 OR's.

I can't find another 11105 casualty from any unit that day. So who was Moore buried with?

To be identified as a Private, some remnant of tunic sleeve without stripes must have been present.

There is a 11105 William Moore, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, no sign of his demise. How did his number end up attached to Ulick's and why does Ulick not have an effects entry?

TEW

[Howard]

It would be nice to see the body density map of Square F to see if F.14.a had two bodies.

Voila. It is on the WFA Mapping the Front DVD, Somme 62C and 62D as M_5_000762.jpg.

There are quite a few of the "Body Density" maps available on the Mapping the Front DVDs and quite a few more on unpublished areas. They make an interesting study in their own right.

Sadly they are not dated so the mark-up could have been during or after the war.

Howard

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Voila.

Thanks Howard.

1 in F.13.a

0 in F.14.a

4 in F.15.a

What conclusion can be drawn?

There is a 11105 William Moore, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, no sign of his demise. How did his number end up attached to Ulick's and why does Ulick not have an effects entry?

So many confounding issues in this enigma aren't there?

[IPT]

There is a 11105 William Moore, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, no sign of his demise. How did his number end up attached to Ulick's and why does Ulick not have an effects entry?

I had a good look at him when the number was first mentioned (he has papers), but he was 9th battalion Inniskilling (not 7/8th), and was taken to 62nd FA end March, with GSW, which seemed too far away.

[Phil Evans]

Don't get caught out by the "body density" maps. They refer to the number of bodies registered prior to the searches being carried out by the exhumation teams.

They do not refer to how many bodies were subsequently recovered.

See Dave's post here for a concise definition.

Phil

[TEW]

IPT

But for some reason the concentration form IDs a body as being 11105 Pte. U. A Moore. Somehow a body identified by a GRU cross came up with another Moore who survived the war.

I presume burials may be mixed in a communal grave and 'contamination' of discs, shoulder tabs, badges, buttons etc from body to body must have been prevalent.

TEW

[KevinBattle]

TEW: As raised in Post #47.

LIEUTENANT Ulick Moore was recovered with an Unknown British Private and initially identified as 11105 Private Moore Connaught Rngers.

To identify a body as a Private ought to mean (in the absence of documents etc) that at least a sleeve without stripes.

Yet a Lt would have a significantly different uniform jacket, collar dogs, lace? and equipment (such as a pistol).

The exhumation teams would no doubt have had plenty of experience in means of identification, yet they seem not only to have misidentified him as NOT an officer, but as a Private.

Furthermore by some quirk, they gave the Number and Name of a surviving soldier with the same surname...... how likely is that? Could (say) a helmet marked "11105 Moore" have been picked up by mistake by a Lt (of the same name) in a different unit?

[johnboy]

When were officers told to ditch their officers uniforms and replace them with OR when going into battle?

[TEW]

Didn't the exhumation team ID him from an existing cross. Therefore it was the original burial party circa march 1918 that miss IDd him. Sorry, must have missed post47 somehow.
TEW

Just to add, Ulick must have been reported missing for some time. My subscription has expired to the Casualty Lists but the index says he was wounded in 1916. In 1918 there is an entry Previously Reported Missing, Now Reported Killed.

His probate wasn't settled until August 1919 date of death given erroneously as 22/3/1919. Anyone with a subscription could check date of his Previously Reported Missing, Now Reported Killed and the original missing report.

[TEW]

I have to add a little more even though I know we've diverged from finding the original location of Ulick's burial.

I said: 'There is a 11105 William Moore, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, no sign of his demise. How did his number end up attached to Ulick's and why does Ulick not have an effects entry?

IPT's reply

I had a good look at him when the number was first mentioned (he has papers), but he was 9th battalion Inniskilling (not 7/8th), and was taken to 62nd FA end March, with GSW, which seemed too far away.

I just found the papers for 11105 William Moore 9th Inniskilling on FMP and just to add another dimension of confusion. The original records have mixed up two different William Moores both with Inniskillings.

The one that was 'taken to 62nd FA end March, with GSW' was actually 11542 William Moore 9th Inniskillings. The officer I/C record Dublin noticed the error in 1915 and corrected it. Any record dated after 1915 relates to 11542 Moore and not 11105 Moore.

There is a second set of service records for W. Moore which comprises one sheet which says he is 11105 William Moore 1st Inniskillings. He was admin to 3rd Gen West Hosp 29/1/1917.

Going back to Ulick Moore. Capt. Roussell (HIs CO) was holding the line - Narrow Guage Railway to Ronssoy-St. Emilie Road this was their position so this is most likey were Ulick was killed and therefore buried nearby. Information from WO95 handwritten account to replace missing diary of March 1918.

We had a grid ref but were not sure which square it was in, surely this must ID which square!!

TEW

[mick1234]

Hello all,

Apologies for not getting back sooner but I see you have been very busy offering your expert advice.Thanks for all the work done on this and now a huge amount of information is now available for me to study, (From the look of it I will be quiet a while.) It is amazing what a simple query can produce !.

Regards

Mick

[TEW]

A couple of points that still niggle at me.

The report within the dairy file covering the period Ulick was killed (diary for March is missing), gives the location for the trench held by Ulick and Roussel on 22nd March. There is no further mention of them. The trench was to the east of St. Emilie.

The other printed report in an earlier post suggested they made a last attempt but were cut down.

Ulick has was reported missing and then later (no dates for either) 'previously reported missing now reported killed'.

Later in the day the enemy had taken St Emilie, therefore overrunning Ulick's trench by about 3Km.

So --- who buried Ulick ie which nationality? When he was exhumed he had a GRU cross, where/when did that come from??

The cross identified the body of 11105 Private Moore and not Lt. Moore.

Would the Germans have taken the body and buried it, either where it was or removed to another location?

TEW

[Phil Evans]

TEW,

It looks like the info regarding his death may have come from interviewing men from his battalion that were in captivity.

His ICRC index card is here.

The GRU cross puzzles me. If he had been killed as described in the article, I would have expected him to have been buried by the Germans in the immediate locality.

Phil

[TEW]

The Times of Oct 16th 1918 says that U A Moore, Connaught Rangers. Previously reported missing, now reported killed.

But, there is another Daily List that gives his status as Killed on 14/8/1918.

I can't find a mention of the original missing date.

Pte. 11105 W. Moore turns up in a few Daily lists:

1st RIF, 10/6/1915, wounded.

1st RIF, 27/8/1915, wounded.

From his one service record sheet we know he was still 1st RIF in Jan 1917.

Found his MIC at last and he was trans to Labour Corps at some point, new number 421912. MIC marked 'serving' so perhaps he is one of the W Moores with a MOD record on the pre-1901 list?? But if so not under either known number. There is a MOD record for a W Moore in RIF.;

TEW

[TEW]

Using a Feb 1918 Map I've marked the Brown Line, not 100% sure which is the narrow gauge railway I.E. the one predominately in E13 or E18.

According to the narrative for 21st March. Capt. Roussell (Ulick's CO) was holding the Brown line between the Narrow Gauge Railway and the St. Emilie - Ronnssoy Rd.

Messages from Roussell timed 8.55am and 9.30am were received at HQ at 11am that this line was being held.

Lt. Moore's party were overrun and cut off somewhere along the Brown Line and maybe made a dash for it but were cut down.

Using Dai's suggested grid ref for the original location of Moore's burial I've marked the four squares that would seem to be the only contenders. Although who buried him is still a bit unknown.

Bearing in mind that St. Emilie was now in German hands and that BN. HQ had moved twice and was now about 4500 yards west of the Brown Line (seems unlikely Ulick would have known where it was)

The yellow box marks the position of the St Emilie Cemetery, close to E.24.9.3.

Capt. Roussell survived the war.

TEW