'Welsh knife'

[Muerrisch]

Would they really have done any damage to an enemy?

I seem to remember that when I had privileged access to the RWF Museum I was allowed to handle one.

I thought it was heavy, unbalanced and more likely to injure me than a foe.

Perhaps they let me hold a copy?

[Kevin O'Marah]

Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:18 PM by myself on this topic.

From papers received from R Wilkinson Latham who presented a Centenary Sword at Cardiff Arms Park on 3rd Feb 1982 to the Welsh Rugby Union in paying tribute to its national game as it celebrated its centenary, the presentation sword was engraved with the names of all the captains of Wales.

The presentation was linked to a sponsorship gift to be made available over three years for schoolboy coaching, and future fund rasing efforts for the Welsh Rugby Union's Centenary Appeal.(Incidentally Wilkinson Sword had a factory at Bridgend).

Also mentioned in the draft press release- The sword(or knives) as they were then called)were supplied privately by Lord Howard de Walden."The sword itself is of significance, being based on a pattern used by Welsh long bowmen at the battle of Crecy in the 15th century and by the Royal Welsh Fusiliers during WW1 particularly at the Battle of Messines Ridge in 1917.

Extracts from IWM website- The "Welsh Knife" was designed by the sculptor and armourer Felix Joubert and patented by himself as a "new or improved trench knife". It was allegedly based on an ancient Welsh weapon, although the existence of such a distinctive Welsh mediaeval sword has since been disproved. An unknown, but limited, numbers were manufactured by the Wilkinson Sword Company, at the behest of Lord de Walden who shared Joubert's interest in mediaeval weapons.

The IWM possesses a memorandum, dated 27 January 1920, which relates to information on the knife supplied by Colonel H Lloyd Williams, late commander of the 9th Battalion, RWF(Lord de Walden commanded the battalion between September and December 1917; Lloyd Williams succeeded to command October 1918). The memorandum states-"9th Batt'n RWF. This battalion made use of a knife with which all machine gunners and bombers were always equipped. Every member of a raiding party was so armed and in one raid on the Messines Ridge two days before the battle of Messines they were used with conspicuous success. They were provided by Lord Howard de Walden and were a replica of a weapon used by Ancient Welsh tribes. They were double-edged, but were intended more for bayoneting than cutting".

I hope that this has and will be of some help to those who have and wish to research the history of "The Welsh knife"

Kevin

[sawdoc34]

Know sweet f**k all about these knives but have seen them offered on sp****u militaria & have passed them over as copies due to my ignorance & lookd like it was a good job I did because they had consecutive DF (claimed to be Denbignshire Fusiliers) numbers ffs

Bewildered,

Aleck

[Khaki]

Just talking through my hat right now, but if those swords had an ancient Welsh pedigree wouldn't the Royal Armories be able to confirm that or maybe they already have?

interested spectator,

khaki

[sawdoc34]

Cymro,

would love to see the pics of your blades mate

Must admit, it will be more out of jealousy than to shut any detractors up

Be good to view originals so poor feckers like myself dont fleeced,

Cheers,

Aleck

[Cymro]

Hi Aleck,

I'd be happy to. They are in secure storage at the moment, along with other pieces from my Welsh WW1 collection, but I'll certainly do some photos next time I access them.

The best article on the Cleddyf is in Arms and Armour Magazine. It was written in the late 80s or early 90s I believe. I have it and will try to dig it out. It's very well researched, including some analysis of Joubert's records if I recal correctly.

Just a note - almost all the fakes I've seen have been acid treated to similate use/natural corrosion etc...

[trajan]

What did they shout when using them? Die Bach, perhaps.

Surely 'Die boche'!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

...... Die Bach....

Yes?

Oh. My name being called in vain.

Again.

[Khaki]

Trying to imagine the situation where a sword/knife weapon of that size would be useful is not easy it would suggest that the rifle/revolver was empty and there was no time to reload and you and your position were being over whelmed, literally hand to hand combat, a fight to the death in other words, did that occur? I am sure it did, particularly in the area of Mametz Wood. I haven't read an account of it being used, but considering the 'last ditch' nature of the weapon maybe the individual survival rate of the combatant forced to use one is very low.

khaki

[trajan]

... This battalion made use of a knife with which all machine gunners and bombers were always equipped. Every member of a raiding party was so armed and in one raid on the Messines Ridge two days before the battle of Messines they were used with conspicuous success. They were provided by Lord Howard de Walden and were a replica of a weapon used by Ancient Welsh tribes. They were double-edged, but were intended more for bayoneting than cutting"....

Trying to imagine the situation where a sword/knife weapon of that size would be useful is not easy it would suggest that the rifle/revolver was empty and there was no time to reload and you and your position were being over whelmed, literally hand to hand combat, a fight to the death in other words, did that occur? I am sure it did, particularly in the area of Mametz Wood. I haven't read an account of it being used, but considering the 'last ditch' nature of the weapon maybe the individual survival rate of the combatant forced to use one is very low.

Clearly these things existed, but there are so many inherent contradictions in the records about this weapon... "Machine gunners and bombers" had them, and yet they are used by "raiding parties", which I guess bombers would be a part of - but machine gunners? And they are "double-edged ... intended more for bayoneting than cutting", but bayonets are thrusting weapons, which is why they are not double-edged... Bearing in mind also that there is no evidence - that I am aware of, anyway! - of an ancient prototype (other than what archaeologists know of as the Bronze Age 'Ewart-type' leaf-shaped sword), and that they were issued to "specialist" MG men and bombers, I do wonder if they were provided essentially as a prestige piece? Yes, they could have been used in action, but as Khaki notes, it is rather difficult to see what sort of action they would be used in, other than as a slash and cut weapon by a raiding party...