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Remembered Today:

How far would a body be moved for burial?


charlie2

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Thanks johnboy, I'm a bit dubious as to him being initially buried where he now lies. CWGC have paperwork on cemeteries that they have not digitised. There are plenty of instances of bodies being quite obviously exhumed and moved but no concentration paperwork survives (according to CWGC). Also, the Germans exhumed and moved bodies too - and I think charlie2 will be aware of this. As a precaution on the latter, I would run his name through ICRC.

Now it's all quiet on my front, I'm off to fire up the PC!

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My post #8 shows it was used at the time. I wonder if it is possible to tell from Row number or grave number when the body was buried.

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No, not disputing that either johnboy but the fact it was in use in June doesn't mean he was buried there in August and I'm still willing to accept that might have been the case but, I think charlie2 needs to establish using the FA diaries the location of 52nd FA and what they were manning at that time. If he died at an RAP then his death would not have been classed as a FA death as the FA did not generally man the RAPs but collected them from a CP. However, finding the RAPs helps to work out how far they were evacuated. If they were working in Corfu Trench, they were very close to the Divisional Boundary with the 4th Div at the time. See here is what the 15th Scottish Div. took over from the 4th Div:

post-70679-0-65742100-1440894449_thumb.j

post-70679-0-78680500-1440894450_thumb.j

The first map is not good quality on the original and is in fact an overlay map and the left hand side of it is badly scorched. It can be seen by comparing the top and bottom map sections that the Divisional Boundary begins to dip down in 24 so putting Corfu just inside the boundary of the Division to the left which I can only assume was the 17th Northern Div. at the time. All refs I can find relate to 47th FA stuff so far and not those of another Div. I'm calling it a night for now and I will look at the RAMC chap's account tomorrow morning.

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Still looking at the RAMC man's account but so far, I've been able to establish that they were probably evacuating via motor launch from ADS at Fampoux because the railway track had been wrecked in places. It was intact as far as Feuchy. The bridge had also been blown and he refers to the railway arches of the bridge but he also states they are the 'stumps' of the arches.

Edit: The Bn. HQ immediately to the right of Corfu Avenue on the second map shown, was probably the edge of the Divisional Boundary in square 24.

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From the WD ADMS 17 Div, OPORD amended 21.06.1917 due to the movement south of the divisional boundary to I14.c.6.2. on 26/27th June 1917.

52 FA - MDS at Hospice des Viollards Arras, G22.b.0.3.

53 FA - OC 53FA to be responsible for the collection of all casualties of the right Brigade. 1 RAMC bearer party to be attached to each RAP, right Bn the single arched bridge in H18, left Bn 3 arched bridge H24.a.4.7. - which is also the RAMC pontoon loading point. " all cases are to be directed to the pontoon loading point where they will be loaded on to pontoons and conveyed to the Forward ADS and transfer point at Fampoux Lock (this ADS is staffed by RAMC of the 4th Division)."

There is no ICRC record for Bamforth.

The CWGC GRR has his death as 19th Aug but has been amend to the 25th. A cross had been erected so would appear to have been buried there and not found by a GRU.

The OPORD is the last one till the Division was relieved in September. It now begs the question why his death was reported by OC 52FA. Neither 52FA or the ADMS WDs mention any further movement of the FA's. I cannot really imagine that Bamforth died in Arras and was then buried in Fampoux, that would really not make any sense at all, or were all deaths reported by the FA providing the MDS?

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Makes some sense. If he died while being moved to or at the ADS at Fampoux then 4th Div. RAMC would presumably have to report the death to his Division and the most logical route of reporting chain would be reporting from one Div. FA to another Div. FA. Therefore, 4th Div. FA informing. 52 FA in Arras that one of theirs had died would put 52 FA in the position of reporting his death onwards through their usual chain and so, their name appears on the final reporting paperwork as being the informants of his death.

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I also wonder sometimes if the date mix-ups are the different dates of death and burial. A few days between death, post-mortem and burial would be expected but sometimes I think the information has been poorly recorded and in some sources the later date of burial is shown incorrectly as a date of death.

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Were post mortems carried out on every man that died whilst in care of medical services?

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I suspect that depended how busy they were, staffing at busy periods and how fast they could empty the mortuary during such busy periods.

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I would have thought that their time would have been spent tending the living. Do any 'field' postmortem documents survive?

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I would guess that any PM carried out would really only be a quick look and not what is common place in todays world. To record that a GSW to the chest was the cause of death would be sufficient and not what internal damage had been caused.

Once again many thanks for your help

Charlie

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Information from post mortems was important for the living. It helped develop inform medical strategies and strategies in the field. It might give information as to what ammunication types of shells the enemy were using etc. I believe there are a few post mortem reports survive but I would have to post the source and not the reports. Also WW1 articles published by RAMC in the BMJ cite post mortem reports.

Burials at ADS not usually carried out in broad daylight to a regulation depth (around 2 feet) if I remember rightly. The diaries I was looking at for 15th Scottish Div. show it was a bit of a hotspot regarding shelling including gas shells.

It is unlikely that a FA of the 4th Div. would have the necessary contacts to inform another Division directly of a death of one of their men. That's why I think it is likely they would have informed via the 52 FA in Arras.

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I agree that PM's are important but I would suggest that any in depth PM's would have been more likely to have been carried out at a Base or Stationary Hospital rather than not far behind the front line?

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Unfortunately, not enough of the records survive for medical units. The source is MH 106 at TNA. The only one that survives for a FA unit is that of the 51st FA which consists, if memory serves me right, of a set of the admission & discharge books. There are more of the CCS records survive but again, I think by and large their admission & discharge books. The books obviously state if a patient has died. One of the CCS I know of has an one of their operations books on abdominal injuries that survives with operation reports. Having just had a quick look at those, I can see that the report (which included narrative and diagram) had to be completed whether an operation was performed or not (in moribund cases) suggesting that in the case of a non-operation, a PM would be necessary to complete the form. I would also have thought that the form was generic. If operations were performed at an ADS, the same form would be completed and, if the patient survived to be evacuated further, it would make up part of their notes and go with them. I can see that some of the patients died, some very shortly after being operated upon and would imagine that in those cases a PM would not take place as the facts were already established and recorded.

The only thing that I can think that might help to pin down how his death came to be reported by 52 FA would be a thorough scouring of the FA diaries from the point they moved into the sector. It might establish at some point, a joint ADS being ran. The account of the RAMC man I have makes a comment to this effect with regard to the Division that took over from the 17th. I have not yet looked at the FA diaries to see if that was mentioned there. I also noted that after about two months, the FA of the 15th Scottish Div. rotated and so another of their FA took over the ADS positions.

We can only build up a picture of what the front line medical profession got up to via snippets of information here and there. Sometimes via Padre's letters and accounts sometimes through other personal accounts, official BMJs or, remarks made in the War Diaries. I was surprised to find a report with diagrams for example on a German bunker on the effects of the gas that killed them. The report was something along the lines of an on-the-spot post mortem combined with a crime scene investigation.

I think this sort of thing might be better addressed by some of the medical experts on the forum. My knowledge in this area is limited. It is terribly sad that in such cases as this, your granddad's cousin, we can only get so far. Given all the information you provided, I think that he probably died at the ADS and was buried at the Level Crossing Cemetery.

I will continue to go through the account of the RAMC officer and his time in the area which covers a fair bit of social stuff but it runs to about 460+ pages and though I've combined them into a single PDF, it still makes specific information difficult to locate/re-locate if they spent a considerable time in one area which they did in this case and it takes up about a quarter of his account.

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Many thanks for your and everybody elses contributions to the thread. I agree with you regarding him having died at the Fampoux Lock ADS much seems to point in that direction. The positive to this is that probably more is known about his death than in 95% of other cases. I will do as you suggest and look through the other FA WD's, something definitive may have been recorded.

Charlie

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Charlie, in post 29, I posted two map crops. On the lower map, directly south of Corfu you can just about see an 'F' in red pen. I had to short crop a smaller section of the map to get it on the forum. The 'F' is 'F Post' where my granddad was captured about 5 weeks after your granddad's cousin died of his wounds. Some time ago, I superimposed the map onto a WW1 aerial photograph, intended for my own personal file on granddad. If you would like me to send it to you, please PM me an email address. Given the joint circumstances, so to speak, I would be more than happy to share it with you and send it plus a separate copy of the map and separate copy of the aerial photograph.

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Charlie, in post 29, I posted two map crops. On the lower map, directly south of Corfu you can just about see an 'F' in red pen. I had to short crop a smaller section of the map to get it on the forum. The 'F' is 'F Post' where my granddad was captured about 5 weeks after your granddad's cousin died of his wounds. Some time ago, I superimposed the map onto a WW1 aerial photograph, intended for my own personal file on granddad. If you would like me to send it to you, please PM me an email address. Given the joint circumstances, so to speak, I would be more than happy to share it with you and send it plus a separate copy of the map and separate copy of the aerial photograph.

Thank you pm sent

Edit: Is your inbox full I got a message saying you cannot receive messages?

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To be honest : I have not read all the preceding postings thoroughly. But I am interested in the question.

The cemetery is not a real concentration cemetery, but I read that it was begun in June 1917, and also that "a number were brought in from the battlefields who had died in April-May"..

I went to the casualties and counted 133 for April 1917. (More than I had expected. And I did not count the May casualties). I think I can say that these 133 originally were buried nearby, and in June were re-buried in this cemetery ? (Or am I making a mistake ?)

I had hoped to find where some of these 133 originally were buried, as this can be done (in many cases) if it is a concentration cemetery. But this only goes for re-burials after the war. So not in the case of the Level Crossing cemetery.

Charlie, can you tell us when your grandad's cousin died ? I mean : was it April-May ? Or was it June or later ? If the former, then couldn't we say he was re-buried, and originally was buried closer than 400 meters ? (I know you said there was no reason or so to assume he had been re-buried, or maybe in other words ... Yet ... Sorry if I insist ... Ands maybe you have already written that. Maybe I should read all postings more thoroughly.)

Aurel

Edited 5 minutes later : Sorry, I had overlooked your posting #31. Now I realize it was end of August. Disregard my posting please.

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Hi Aurel, I think that there was (for me) a question over where he died which was created over some confusion with regard to the ADS which reported his death (52 FA) and the ADS that was manning Fampoux (10 FA) and from other cases I have seen clearly a concentration or exhumation has occurred but no paperwork to show it. Also of course some of these being, as you pointed out, from movement of bodies by British or German before the end of the war.


Thank you pm sent

Edit: Is your inbox full I got a message saying you cannot receive messages?

Sorry, I've cleared some space now. I knew it was nearly full at 59 but thought 60 was the max but it seems that even at 59, it was at 100% full.

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Were post mortems carried out on every man that died whilst in care of medical services?

I would have thought that their time would have been spent tending the living. Do any 'field' postmortem documents survive?

I would like to try and answer your question more fully and strike my earlier response. It might be a subject better addressed by one of the forum medical experts. This is based on observations made from looking at one of the surviving CCS files.

I have scrubbed and now attach one of the forms (both sides) from an operations book regarding abdominal injuries, from a record that does survive and from a CCS. The book (from MH 106) is compiled of these completed forms.

Working from top downwards, at the heading it can be seen that those who died without an operation would have a PM.

On looking through the book, it seems that their 'condition on admission' was assessed and given one of four categories; bad, poor, fair or good. Obviously those who were evacuated from this CCS were not given a post mortem. I can also see that those who received an initial assessment of bad or poor do not, after having had surgery, seem to have any PM notes on the second page and their cause of death is inserted on the first page. However, those who were categorised as fair or good who died after surgery do have PM notes on the second page.

operations1_zpsu2jqer7m.jpg

operations2_zpstommbybx.jpg

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The attached RAMC orders from the WD ADMS 4th Division clear up any confusion over the situation of the ADS at Fampoux Lock. Details of casualties were wired to DDMS XVII Corps daily, he would then in turn have passed any relevant information to ADMS 17th Division, who would then have passed them down to OC 52 FA at the MDS who reported Charley Bamforth's death.

post-7373-0-99237100-1441101804_thumb.jp

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Top stuff Charlie! I'm glad you cracked it for Charley :)

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  • 4 months later...

Many thanks for your and everybody elses contributions to the thread. I agree with you regarding him having died at the Fampoux Lock ADS much seems to point in that direction. The positive to this is that probably more is known about his death than in 95% of other cases. I will do as you suggest and look through the other FA WD's, something definitive may have been recorded.

Charlie

Charlie, in post 29, I posted two map crops. On the lower map, directly south of Corfu you can just about see an 'F' in red pen. I had to short crop a smaller section of the map to get it on the forum. The 'F' is 'F Post' where my granddad was captured about 5 weeks after your granddad's cousin died of his wounds. Some time ago, I superimposed the map onto a WW1 aerial photograph, intended for my own personal file on granddad. If you would like me to send it to you, please PM me an email address. Given the joint circumstances, so to speak, I would be more than happy to share it with you and send it plus a separate copy of the map and separate copy of the aerial photograph.

Hi Charlie, just reading a book at the moment that contains a Padre's account of a burial at an emergency cemetery somewhere along the ;Chinstrap Lane'. I'm trying to work out if he is referring to Level Crossing Cemetery...I can scan and email to you though if it might add to your research on Charley or as something you can pick up and run with yourself? Padre was with 15th Scottish Div.

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Hi Charlie, just reading a book at the moment that contains a Padre's account of a burial at an emergency cemetery somewhere along the ;Chinstrap Lane'. I'm trying to work out if he is referring to Level Crossing Cemetery...I can scan and email to you though if it might add to your research on Charley or as something you can pick up and run with yourself? Padre was with 15th Scottish Div.

Hello Seaforths

Thanks for the offer, it sounds very interesting - yes please.

Charlie

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