jimmy9fingers1 Posted 30 September , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2015 Good to see the how the leather hangers are attached and they really are in great condition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 September , 2015 Share Posted 30 September , 2015 Yes, this HG frog has been there forever. I have another HG frog that was used for a P.07/13 scabbard, and so it is badly creased around the space between the two front sections. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 Above are examples of transitional 1913 bayonets - completed and inspected by the British inspector but then taken over by the US and the inspector's stamp crossed out and US added. S>S has some very late ones marked 10 17, 09 17 seem to be the most common. Following these are the transitional 1917 bayonets that are fully marked as US Model 1917 bayonets with US inspectors marks - but NO clearance hole. These are supposed to be October 1917 production. In between is yet another variation that I had heard about but not seen in the flesh - 1913 marked and dated but with full US inspection marks not crossed out British ones. I recently obtained one of these, but the markings ask a few questions in this case: There seems to be a rubbed out X bending mark, which I get, but what is under the 1913 set of marks - it looks like the 1917 mark layout, that I don't get. Also this is a Home Guard example where the first type US scabbard has had the leather hanger removed to fit it in the HG leather frog. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Well, your eyesight is spot on - both obverse and reverse have scrubbed out markings! And yes, it does look to be a '1917' mark... Frog looks to be marked also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 July , 2019 Share Posted 27 July , 2019 Does anyone know who the Maker G.H.Y. is? I have a US green leather M1917 scabbard with the letters G.H.Y. stamped near the seam. Both locket & chape are stamped G.F. in oval. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 August , 2019 Share Posted 2 August , 2019 Welcome to GWForum! No idea on those ones, I;m afraid. But have a look at: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_11.htm for a discussion of these M.1917 scabbards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 August , 2019 Share Posted 2 August , 2019 I do not remember ever seeing that Eagles head before. There are 2 styles of " flaming bomb" stamp. I love how deep and crisp your's is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 27 August , 2019 Share Posted 27 August , 2019 (edited) I submit that G.H.Y. is the inspector's initials and G.F. is the marking of General Fireproofing Co. which produced throats and ferrules for Maxim scabbards.. Edited 31 August , 2019 by 2nd Dublins Typo'd G.H.Y. as G.Y.F. and changed 'caps' to 'ferrules' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 August , 2019 Share Posted 31 August , 2019 On 28/08/2019 at 00:18, 2nd Dublins said: I submit that G.H.Y. is the inspector's initials and G.F. is the marking of General Fireproofing Co. which produced throats and ferrules for Maxim scabbards.. Hello and welcome, Interesting idea. I know nothing about any Maxim scabbards - would you like to elaborate? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 6 September , 2019 Share Posted 6 September , 2019 Good evening Trajan, Thank you for your welcome. It's my pleasure to be here. Researching my M1917 bayonet I have found the following information: Hiram Percy Maxim, Dr. Maxim's son, is credited with the design of the leather scabbards in Ralph Cobb's World Bayonets website, Jewell Belting of Hartford, Conn. and Graton and Knight in Worcester, Mass. are acknowledged as the scabbard manufacturers in Dave Cunningham's Bayo Points #11. The metal furniture, throats and ferrules, were sourced from G.F, (General Fireproofing of Youngstown, Ohio), again citing World Bayonets. It is suggested by Frank Trzaska of usmilitaryknives.com that the M.S. identifies the Maxim Silencer Co; which I find to be a very plausible explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 September , 2019 Share Posted 6 September , 2019 The leather scabbards for the Pattern 13 Bayonet were identical to those for the Model 1907. When the British contracts ended and the Pattern 13 bayonet continued in production as the M1917 scabbard design was altered only in the replacement of the frog stud with (initially) leather and wire hangers and later integral wire hangers. It seems a bit excessive to credit Maxim with the design of the "scabbard" as opposed to the locket. In Maxim's own words " The fundamental purpose of the invention is the provision of means of a simple and effective character by which such a scabbard can be attached to the belt at present in use in this country " The "redesign" was really therefore throat of the scabbard only to allow for suspension from the US equipment -- this is shown here in Maxim's patent. And as you point out they were produced by Graton and Knight (Worcs Mass) and Jewell Belting (Hart. Conn) which is also where Maxim Silencer Co was based - which would support the contention that MS refers to them as a component subcontractor- Many M1917 bayonets appear to have been overhauled at Rock Island IL in WWII and later Beckwith Manufacturing Co produced a completely redesigned "cloth-reinforced fabric model" much like the Garand bayonet scabbard - which continued in service as late as Vietnam on M1917s used on shotguns). As it turned out the Maxim design of the leather hanger proved to be weak in service and was replaced in production in October 1917 just 4 months after the patent, by the simpler more robust wire hooks attached to the scabbard throat. Chris (CS Ferris's "United States Model of 1917" and Stratton's "Pattern 1914 and US Model 1917" both have short extracts on the bayonets) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 September , 2019 Share Posted 6 September , 2019 12 hours ago, 4thGordons said: The leather scabbards for the Pattern 13 Bayonet were identical to those for the Model 1907. Good to see you back from your travels Chris - and great information on that Jewell scabbard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 14 September , 2019 Share Posted 14 September , 2019 I regret that my reply to Trajan may have ruffled some feathers. Fourth Gordons is on the money. Hiram Maxim's efforts were to modify the Pattern 1907 scabbard to adapt it for use with American equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 September , 2019 Share Posted 14 September , 2019 I wouldn't concern yourself! These pointy-thing aficionados are an odd bunch! Welcome to the forum - please stay and join in - we all have much to learn! WELCOME! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 16 September , 2019 Share Posted 16 September , 2019 Thank you, Chris, for your warm greeting. I will try to keep up with you aficionados. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 17 September , 2019 Share Posted 17 September , 2019 This thread seems to be the focal point for Allied bayonets and scabbards. Hopefully then, these following questions aren't problematic. Are there any Pattern 1913 bayonets with an acceptance date earlier than 1916? The question is prompted by the statement in this thread that the Pattern 1913 was accepted (?) in 1916. Was the Pattern 1913 ever manufactured in Great Britain or, discounting the three thousand or so made at the Rock Island Arsenal, will examples of the bayonet only be marked with Remington or Winchester trademarks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 September , 2019 Share Posted 17 September , 2019 14 minutes ago, 2nd Dublins said: This thread seems to be the focal point for Allied bayonets and scabbards. Hopefully then, these following questions aren't problematic. Are there any Pattern 1913 bayonets with an acceptance date earlier than 1916? The question is prompted by the statement in this thread that the Pattern 1913 was accepted (?) in 1916. Was the Pattern 1913 ever manufactured in Great Britain or, discounting the three thousand or so made at the Rock Island Arsenal, will examples of the bayonet only be marked with Remington or Winchester trademarks? According to most sources (ie Skennerton and Richardson p 195) The very first run of 1,200 Trials pattern bayonets was made by Enfield (to accompany the original Pattern 1913 rifle) in 1912-3 - these bayonets had a hooked quillon and were numbered to the individual rifles on the pommel In 1917 Vickers produced a small run of 1,500 Pattern 1913 bayonets (If I recall correctly there is a thread on here showing one) If this is correct (which I assume it to be) then 1) I would assume the Enfield Bayonets produced in 1912/3 would have acceptance dates for those years (earlier than 1916) indeed one is pictured on p 189 of S&R showing a 1 '13 date and 2) No, as above examples also exist with Enfield and Vickers marks although they would be massively rarer than either Winchester (@225,000) or Remington (@1,243,000) I am not aware of (nor do I see any mention in S&R ) of any number of Pattern 1913 bayonets being produced at Rock Island. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 18 September , 2019 Share Posted 18 September , 2019 Thank you for your concise reply, Chris. Again I've allowed myself to be lulled by the Pattern 1913/Model 1917 common heritage. I should have spoken more clearly with my reference to the Rock Island Arsenal. To clarify, as reported in Dave Cunningham's - Bayo Points 10, 3,000 Model 1917 bayonets were produced at Rock Island. I assume as some sort of a trial as the arsenal was turning out M1905 'Springfield' bayonets at the time. I regret not being clearer but allow me to thank you for answering my unstated question, "Did the Royal armories continue making Pattern 1907 bayonets while pattern 1913's were contracted out?" Gratefully, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd Dublins Posted 19 September , 2019 Share Posted 19 September , 2019 Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Following this retraction and correction, I am going to bury my head in the sand until I learn to understand what I read. I incorrectly referenced Dave Cunningham's work. The correct issue is Bayo Points 11. In it he states, "According to Benedict Crowell in America's Munitions, Rock Island Arsenal manufactured 3,000 of these scabbards." As I said, my fault and I apologize for the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 19 September , 2019 Share Posted 19 September , 2019 LOL thanks for clarifying that Mark. I was a little puzzled because being particularly interested in Great War rifles - and living reasonably close to Rock Island and having visited their collection a number of times I was wondering how I could have missed out on this whole idea! Scabbards makes much more sense! BTW if the P14 / M1917 production is interesting to you Luke Mercaldo's Allied Rifle Contracts in America has a good section on them (and great info on Berthiers, Nagants and Belgian Mausers etc produced in the US for various powers) Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thVBGH Posted 30 September , 2019 Share Posted 30 September , 2019 I've found this thread very interesting, thankyou. I see comment that Remington took over production of the 1913 to produce M 1917 bayonets, some over stamped.....Would the same apply to Winchester produced bayonets? I have a Winchester produced bayonet with the X visible, and the remains of some sort of marking similar to the eagle head earlier.....I can't see this particular marking in British & Commonwealth Bayonets by Skennerton & Richardson, or in Ians The US Enfield though as I say its not a complete stamping. Stands to reason Winchester would've done the same with any leftover 1913 production.......would that be correct? With a smaller production run for the earlier pattern, I can't imagine there'd be too much leftover to contribute towards the 1917 bayonet. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 1 October , 2019 Share Posted 1 October , 2019 Question- The photo of the eagle head & 21 on post 28. I have a Remington marked with the same eagle and flaming bomb, but it has a small 12 under the eagle and next to the S in the US is an X with a very small 9 stamped on the bottom of the X. Inspector marks? new3.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 October , 2019 Share Posted 11 October , 2019 On 14/09/2019 at 05:01, 2nd Dublins said: I regret that my reply to Trajan may have ruffled some feathers. Fourth Gordons is on the money. Hiram Maxim's efforts were to modify the Pattern 1907 scabbard to adapt it for use with American equipment. Certainly didn't ruffle mine! Sorry for a very late response - a hectic start to the new semester... But very interesting comments and contributions here. 2nd Dublins, as Chris says, we all live and learn from others, so thanks for a great thread! On 01/10/2019 at 04:32, new3.2 said: Question- The photo of the eagle head & 21 on post 28. I have a Remington marked with the same eagle and flaming bomb, but it has a small 12 under the eagle and next to the S in the US is an X with a very small 9 stamped on the bottom of the X. Inspector marks? new3.2 Sounds like it - can we have a photograph please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 14 October , 2019 Share Posted 14 October , 2019 Per a Photo- About the eagle and numbers I will visit Fourth Gordon next month and will bring it along to get good photos of these marks. New 3.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 October , 2019 Share Posted 14 October , 2019 1 hour ago, new3.2 said: Per a Photo- About the eagle and numbers I will visit Fourth Gordon next month and will bring it along to get good photos of these marks. New 3.2 I'll make sure my camera is with me at the GWE! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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