Jewell 1918 Scabbard for the P13 Type Bayonet

[jimmy9fingers1]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me a bit more about the Jewell manufactured scabbard for the p13 bayonet,

I was told that the green jewell scabbards such as the one I have attached in the picture are the earlier type of scabbard for the p13 bayonet, yet I only seem to have come across examples dated 1918, indeed most of the p13 scabbards I see have a scabbard like the p1907's, I have one that is marked HGR who I believe were a British maker.

Basically I was wondering which is the original scabbard for the p13's, did the jewell scabbard come along later?, it also has a wire hanger to attach the frog to, unlike my HGR marked scabbard that has the teardrop design.

The frog that is with this bayonets is also wider than the p37 frogs I have encountered in the past, I presume it is a p37 frog, I don't know too much bout the subject.

Any input on p13 scabbards or the frog would be much appreciated

Thanks

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me a bit more about the Jewell manufactured scabbard for the p13 bayonet,

From a distance, your bayonet appears to have a circular ' Remington ' maker's mark on the blade ? so is it a Remington made British Pattern 1913 Mk I Sword Bayonet, or an American Model 1917 bayonet ?

are there any British markings on the other side of the blade ?

Your scabbard, which is fitted with wire belt loops, is an American scabbard made for the American Model 1917 bayonet.

HGR., were the British scabbard makers ' Hepburn Gale & Ross ' of Bermondsy, London, and ' Jewell ' were the american scabbard makers the ' Jewell Belting Company ' of Hartford, Connecticut, USA.

The first thing to establish, are what markings are on the other side of your bayonet's blade to that shown in the first photograph ? could you please confirm.

Also what markings are above the circular maker's mark shown in the first photograph ? could you please confirm.

Regards,

LF

[Gew88/05]

Good information on your scabbard from Lancashire Fusilier. You have a Second Pattern M1917 Scabbard made for the US M1917 Bayonet. Green is the standard color for the US M1917 1st and 2nd Pattern scabbard leather bodies, all metal parts would have been black. While it was manufactured to the same pattern as the British Pattern '07 and 13 bayonets, the US topmount lacks a stud and was attached to the equipment belt by hooks, yours appear to have been removed.

Many M1917 Rifles and bayonets were sent to England during WW2 and many were used by the British Home Guard.

An excellent and accurate place for information on the US M1917 bayonet scabbards can be found in Gary Cunningham's Bayonet Points at:

http://usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_11.htm

[msdt]

As mentioned above, you probably have a Home Guard setup there. As the P13 and M1917 bayonets are interchangeable with regard to the 2 rifles, it is quite conmmon to find P13's in M17 scabbards, and vice versa. Removing the belt hook is also common to make them fit a British frog better, sometimes the bracket is also filed down.

HG setups also often come with frogs, so I assume a lot of bayonets did not get returned to stores! That's an interesting frog, not totally sure of the model.

Cheers,

Tony

[msdt]

Have just had a look on karkeeweb.com and that could be a very interesting frog. It seems to be an early 08 pattern frog with the rivets, and then been modified with the hilt retainer added.

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

Basically I was wondering which is the original scabbard for the p13's ....

This is a very good question, as it is something which you don't see much about in the reference books - the original scabbards that were shipped with the P1913 bayonets.?

These days they're mostly found in replacement scabbards. British service examples in the black leather P1907 scabbards, with US service types in green M1917 scabbards.

And this is confused more by the shipments of the US bayonets and scabbards to Britain during WW2, and the subsequent interchangeability and swapping of the available kit.

I picked up an interesting example just the other weekend which again raised this very question. This was an early 1917 made Winchester P1913 in a '17 Remington scabbard.

Scabbard is of P1907 type & clearly stamped with the RE marking on both locket and chape. The leather does not not appear to have the expected British inspection markings.?

I have always understood that the British contract P1913 bayonets would have been shipped with American made P1907 type scabbards, but you just don't see them very often.

I guess the normal process of repair and replacement under service conditions (plus interchangeability with the M1917) has resulted in a lot of mis-matched bayonets/scabbards.

So what are original scabbards for P1913 bayonets supposed to look like.? No doubt they were produced in the Brown leather.? Anyone ever see a Winchester made scabbard.?

Cheers, S>S

[jimmy9fingers1]

Hi All,

thanks for the information,

it's all going to be useful, I will check the links outs. I will post some pictures of both bayonets and their respective scabbards.

After reading some former posts on this great forum. I notice that there are p13 type Bayonets and p17 bayonets,

msdt mentions, the bayonets are interchangeable on both the p14 and m17 rifle, I was unaware there were two types of this bayonet.

I did suspect that these would probably have been Home Guard examples as I knew they used the m17 .30 06 calibre rifles in our Local Village Home Guard as I was fortunate enough to have known the Corporal.

Both bayonets are made by Remington (I presume in the states), the bayonets are in exactly the same condition as when I came to get them, so could be in ex Home Guard Set-Up.

The darker blued finish bayonet is the one the image next to the Jewell Scabbard and features the extra wide riveted frog and wire hanger (This is Marked U.S and has had the British inspection marks crossed out)

The silver finished bayonet is opposite it and is complete with British inspection marks also, these have not been crossed out and there is no US mark.

(Note: Not all the photo's will load, I will post some more)

Thanks all for getting involved and posting the links.

[jimmy9fingers1]

I have attaché two pic's,

the 1st is the second pic of bayonet 1, which is the English marked bayonet form the HGR scabbard,

The 2nd is of Bayonet 2, the blue finished U.S marked example from the jewell scabbard

[jimmy9fingers1]

the reverse of bayonet 2: The US marked example from the Jewell Scabbard, which shows the crossing out of British inspection marks and the US marking

[Lancashire Fusilier]

After reading some former posts on this great forum. I notice that there are p13 type Bayonets and p17 bayonets,

Your photograph on the right, shows a British Pattern 1913 Mk I Sword Bayonet made in the U.S. by Remington and is dated March 1917. The 1913 date on the blade is the bayonet's ' Pattern ' date.

Although this bayonet was made for the British Pattern 1914 rifle, it was not approved until June 1916.

Remington made some 1,243,000 Pattern 1913 bayonets for the British.

Your other bayonet also started out as a British Pattern 1913 Mk I Sword Bayonet also made by Remington, and when the Americans took over the Remington production for their own Model 1917 bayonets when they entered WW1, remaining stocks of the British Pattern 1913 still at the Remington factory were re-stamped with a series of diagonal lines to cancel the British markings and new American markings were then applied.

The scabbard shown at the top of the photograph is a British scabbard made by Hepburn Gale & Ross ' of Bermondsy, London, and the American scabbard shown at the bottom, was made by the ' Jewell Belting Company ' of Hartford, Connecticut, USA.

Regards,

LF

[msdt]

Following up on S>S's points re scabbard types, actually among the bayonets and scabbards that I have purchased here in the UK I have quite a lot of Remington marked ones!

Looking through my notes I see that I've written up all of the Remington lockets as teardrop frog studs and the locket either without, or with, rivets. I have not recorded any round frog studs. The Remington marks come in 3 flavours: RE only, RE with a line above and below, RE in a circle. My lockets with no rivets have the plain RE, and a couple look like '15 dated leather, so these could have come with the 100,000 Remington produced 1907's. I would guess that next came the RE with the lines, followed by RE in a circle - I have one of the latter dated '17. These observations are based on scabbards that do not look as if they have been rebuilt.

So, my guess barring further data is that the Pattern 1913 bayonets came in Remington produced 1907 type scabbards (I have seen none with Winchester markings yet).

Interesting that the US Type scabbards do not seem to have been made by Remington at all - but could Remington have continued to supply 1907 scabbards to Britain (or even lockets and chapes)???

Cheers,

Tony

[msdt]

BTW jimmy9finger 1, that means that your 2 bayonets have the correct scabbards!

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for your comments Tony. Yes I agree, it is very common to see some of the P1907 scabbard components stamped with the RE markings for Remington.

I believe Remington were a major supplier of replacement parts as well as complete scabbards to the British army during the war. This doesn't help in our case.!

It just makes it harder to determine what is an original scabbard and what is a replacement or repaired scabbard. I think the date stamped on the scabbard is key.

But with many scabbards that saw long service, the markings stamped into the leather along the seam are now difficult to make out, indeed if they are visible at all.

As you have mentioned I think the only way to get a picture of what happened, is to put together some data on this from existing scabbards that are showing a date.

The P1913 bayonet is less commonly seen in Australia as they were not really in service here. Which makes my new one more intriguing as the scabbard has a D^.

The data on this example shows the 'lined' RE stamped on locket and chape with a '17 on the leather. I may have to give it a bit of a clean to check for other marks.!

One thing is certain, the Sword-Bayonet, Pattern 1913 was made under contract in the US and matched with Scabbard, Sword-Bayonet, Pattern 1907 (LoC #17798)

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

There is a short discussion of this in Mercaldo, where he also provides numbers on bayonet and scabbard production.

I will need to reread it but my recollection is that you conclusion (P13 bayonets supplied in standard P1907 scabbards) is his.

I can look into this and report later.

I think the Jewell / Remington differences raised by Tony is also hinted at - British Govt Contracts went to REMINGTON UMC (contract B/7230) but were subcontracted to Jewel Belting (Hartford Conn) and Graton and Knight (Worcs Mass).

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The List of Changes, Para No.17798 published in The Army Circular for the month of August 1916, which related to the Pattern 1914 Rifle and it's Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet & Scabbard, states :-

" Scabbards, sword-bayonet, pattern 1907, are common to the pattern 1913 sword-bayonet. "

LF

[jimmy9fingers1]

Thanks for all the extra information Guys,

So am I right in thinking that the only difference between the bayonet designed for the p14 rifle and that designed for the m1917 rifle is the U.S markings on the latter and of course the various scabbards you have mentioned?

Presumably later p13 bayonets are also absent of the British inspection marks/proof marks as there intended market was the US Government.

Pleased to hear these examples appear to have the correct scabbards for the bayonets.

And presumably both the bayonets I have mentioned would have ended up crossing the pond as Home Guard weapons.

I think of them as the Corporal Jones Bayonet, I guess in theory the U.S marked example could have been carried by an American initially.

Both of them seem in good'ish condition exempt the American bayonet is missing the tip.

Thank you all again for all the info.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

So am I right in thinking that the only difference between the bayonet designed for the p14 rifle and that designed for the m1917 rifle is the U.S markings on the latter and of course the various scabbards you have mentioned?

Presumably later p13 bayonets are also absent of the British inspection marks/proof marks as there intended market was the US Government.

As far as design, there is no difference between the British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet and the American Model 1917 bayonet.

All British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonets will have British inspection/proof marks, or re-stamped American markings.

Only those British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonets left over at the Remington factory during WW1 were used by the Americans, the British did not supply other Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonets to the Americans, it was the other way around, with the Americans supplying the British with their Model 1917 bayonets during WW2.

Those American Model 1917 bayonets supplied to the British during WW2, were usually given British scabbards to fit with British equipment.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

So am I right in thinking that the only difference between the bayonet designed for the p14 rifle and that designed for the m1917 rifle is the U.S markings on the latter and of course the various scabbards you have mentioned?

The only design difference between the P1913 and M1917 bayonets is the Clearing Hole which was a US addition to their Model 1917 bayonet. This makes a handy way to tell them apart.

The M1917 will (nearly) always have the Clearing Hole, while the P1913 will (nearly) always be found without the Clearing Hole. HERE are some LINKS which show the design of the M1917.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A good point regarding the Model 1917 clearance hole, however, there are anomalies regarding the American Model 1917 bayonet's clearance hole, which are those bayonets taken over by the Americans at the Remington factory, which after having American markings applied became American Model 1917 bayonets, these Model 1917 bayonets do not have clearance holes, as we can see from the photograph in post #7.

This anomaly, is aptly illustrated with the Model 1917 in the American scabbard shown in post #1 which has no clearance hole, all other Model 1917 will have a clearance hole.

LF

[4thGordons]

...., all other Model 1917 will have a clearance hole.

LF

Although accurate for WWI production of the M1917 bayonet (and thus most relevant to the discussion here), the life of the design went well beyond that which adds additional wrinkles/exceptions.

In addition to the WWII use by both the US and the UK, the M1917 was produced anew by two companies much later, during the Vietnam War for use on "Trench" (sic) Shotguns. These companies were General Cutlery of Fremont, Ohio, and Canadian Arsenals Limited, Long Branch, Canada.

While in terms of dimensions the bayonet was basically the same -there were significant changes: the grips were not wooden but plastic, the guard was pinned to the blade (pins show) and interestingly there was no clearance hole in the pommel.

These blades retained the M1917 designation and it is stamped on the guard (US M1917) the blade being unmarked. All the examples of these blades I have seen (inc. the one I own) have a greenish-grey parkerized finish.

These were issued with a rigid, composite scabbard as used in WWII.

This is perhaps relevant as a "warning" I have seen such blades used in a WWI display! I include this observation simply to round out our coverage of M1917 blades which may be encountered.

One scabbard type which we have not mentioned here directly here which is the "first pattern" US scabbard which had the wire hanger attached not directly to the throat but used a leather tongue attached to a block on the back of the scabbard. It appears that a number of the bayonets supplied to the UK in WWII were of this kind as I have seen several where the leather/hanger was removed and the block remains.

Here is one of mine which came with this frog and a '39 Pattern leather belt, strongly suggestive of HG/LDV use. Note the absence of the standard stud on the scabbard (and no split in the frog either!)

The frog is dated 1941

The leather tongue and hanger would have been attached to the block.

I do not own a complete version of this scabbard with the leather and wire hanger but images and a write up can be found HERE

This scabbard has a small MS stamp on it.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although accurate for WWI production of the M1917 bayonet (and thus most relevant to the discussion here), the life of the design went well beyond that which adds additional wrinkles/exceptions.

A most interesting example, and one I have not seen before.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

One scabbard type which we have not mentioned here directly here which is the "first pattern" US scabbard which had the wire hanger attached not directly to the throat but used a leather tongue attached to a block on the back of the scabbard. It appears that a number of the bayonets supplied to the UK in WWII were of this kind as I have seen several where the leather/hanger was removed and the block remains.

Here is a photo of my "first pattern" M1917 scabbards to help illustrate how the leather hanger was attached to the scabbard locket, and the wire loop which attached to the belt.

The leather hanger section did not last long under service conditions, and so it was soon replaced with the 2nd pattern scabbard which did away with the leather piece altogether.

Both of my scabbards were made by Graton and Knight (G&K) and are dated 1917, but show different metal components used in the manufacture ... both MS and GF topmounts.

It appears that numbers of these bayonets and scabbards were shipped to Australia during WW2, and warehoused as part of the Pacific theatre build-up of material for US troops.

I was fortunate to acquire these examples from a collector/dealer who uncovered a "cache". Both are very late Remington production (Oct. '17) US overstamped P1913 bayonets.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Some really nice examples of the M1917s on this thread. Those scabbards are in outstanding condition S>S

[trajan]

Been off for a while on minor problem (no, not legal!), and so nice to return to such an interesting thread! Just a couple of points, if I may?

Looking through my notes I see that I've written up all of the Remington lockets as teardrop frog studs and the locket either without, or with, rivets. I have not recorded any round frog studs. ...

That is also my experience, and suggests early WW1 production of these by Remington. Have not checked for any variations in the five or so RE scabbards that I have but will try to do so at some point!

... One scabbard type which we have not mentioned here directly here which is the "first pattern" US scabbard which had the wire hanger attached not directly to the throat but used a leather tongue attached to a block on the back of the scabbard. It appears that a number of the bayonets supplied to the UK in WWII were of this kind as I have seen several where the leather/hanger was removed and the block remains. ...

Fascinating piece of information and thanks to SS for showing his - I think he posted them before but cannot remember where, and w/o the story!

Trajan

[trajan]

As mentioned above, you probably have a Home Guard setup there. ...

Many of the HG issued ones had the hooks removed, but not always. In this case note how the leather HG frog is creased and bent where it is fitted over the US belt-hook style fittings. And for clarity for others, a 'J' mark! The bayonet, BTW, is a Winchester product...

Trajan