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Remembered Today:

P1907 Sanderson Bayonet


Khaki
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A few images I thought of interest to you all, blade dated 12/1?, pommel marked to 1 WTS, not sure if the frog is correct for the blade/scabbard but I am sure you can tell me more,

khaki

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A few images I thought of interest to you all, blade dated 12/1?, pommel marked to 1 WTS,

khaki,

Your Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet's Pommel is marked to the 1st Battalion The Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment ' WTS '., with the bayonet's serial number ' 156 ' also marked on the Pommel.

The frog looks fine to me, and they were sometimes interchanged or replaced.

From what I can see, the blade looks very nice.

Regards,

LF

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khaki,

Sanderson Bros. & Newbould Ltd., of Newhall Road, Sheffield are listed as having produced some 1,600,000 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets during WW1, the second largest producer after Wilkinson's 2,360,000.

Regards,

LF

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Thanks LF,

I first thought that the date of manufacture was 12/18 (with the naked eye) but when I used a magnifier I could see that there was almost nothing there where I thought it had been an eight. Does the unit marking suggest a much earlier year 1915/16 perhaps?, or is that an impossible question.?

thanks

khaki

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khaki,

Some of the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet manufacturers did not really start their production until the outbreak of WW1, and Sanderson got off to a slow start with their Pattern 1907 production, as by 1st April 1917, they had only produced 52,726 bayonets, with the bulk of their production coming in the latter half of 1917 and 1918.

Also, as your bayonet's pommel has a drilled clearance hole, that probably indicates it was manufactured after April 1916.

Only the date of issue mark, will tell us more.

As to the pommel mark, The 1st Battalion The Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment, were formed in 1881, and their barracks were at the Le Marchant Barracks in Devizes, Wiltshire.

During WW1, they were some of the first into France, landing at Rouen on 14th August 1914 ( anniversary date yesterday ).

I doubt that regimental pommel marking took place during WW1, mainly for security reasons, and also for practical reasons, with the regimental armourers being fully occupied with more important work, so there is certainly the possibility that your bayonet's pommel was marked during the inter-war years.

As yet, I have not seen any indication as to when regimental pommel marking officially ended, if it did/has ?

Out of interest, here is a photograph of officers and men from the 1st Battalion, The Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment, taken at Bouzincourt in September 1916, having just returned from fighting at Thiepval.

Note the soldier on the far right front, who has a Wire Cutter attached to his rifle.

Regards,

LF

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What is the bipod-mounted, automatic-looking rifle in the foreground ?

Regards,

JMB

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What is the bipod-mounted, automatic-looking rifle in the foreground ?

JMB,

It looks like a German Light Machine-Gun, probably one the 1st Batt. Wilts captured during the fighting ?

Here is a photograph of a German Spandau 7.92 mm L.M.G., which looks similar ?

Regards,

LF

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I thought it was a Lewis Gun without the pan magazine??

khaki

khaki,

I know nothing about Lewis Machine-Guns, so I am sure you are right.

Here is a photograph for comparison, the butt and the hand-grip look the same, I can also see the Lewis Gun's cooling fins/blades just before the outer casing starts.

Regards,

LF

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... not sure if the frog is correct for the blade/scabbard but I am sure you can tell me more.

To answer your question, I don't believe the Frog is correct for your blade/scabbard. Exactly which Pattern is it supposed to be.?

From the photos it appears to be of the "Slade Wallace type" but I have problems with those rivets being 1. British and 2. Period

So I would be suggesting either 'non-spec', 'foreign' or reproduction. Best to post photos in Equipment and talk to the Specialists.!

Cheers, S>S

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I thought it was a Lewis Gun without the pan magazine??

khaki

khaki,

You are absolutely correct, here is another photograph of men from the 1st Battalion,The Wiltshire Regiment, again taken at Bouzincourt in September 1916, having just returned from fighting at Thiepval, along with their German souvenirs, and clearly shown are their Lewis Machine-Guns both with their magazines fitted and without magazines.

I have also sent you a PM.

Regards,

LF

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... not sure if the frog is correct for the blade/scabbard ...

To answer your question, I don't believe the Frog is correct for your blade/scabbard. Exactly which Pattern is it supposed to be.?

From the photos it appears to be of the "Slade Wallace type" but I have problems with those rivets being 1. British and 2. Period

So I would be suggesting either 'non-spec', 'foreign' or reproduction. Best to post photos in Equipment and talk to the Specialists.!

Well, if in service / field use in WW1 then a P.1908 frog, the webbing version, would be the norm for this bayonet - this is what I think SS means by his first sentence.

As for the frog you have, it certainly does appear to be a version of the 'Slade Wallace' P.1888 frog, and as SS hints at, these saw a very long period of service, and I understand that they were used / made throughout the Commonwealth. The rivets look to be brass/copper with steel washers, which to my mind - I am by no means a specialist! - is not a GB thing. It could well have been part of a short-lot made for a Cadet Force! No markings at all, not even traces of an ink stamp?

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Good morning Julian,

My thoughts are also that it might be a commonwealth produced example, hence the rivets, possibly the product of a small town leather industry. That could be why it resembles a Slade Wallace type frog. Probably copied from existing examples or patterns with functionality being the main concern over government specifications. I have seen other examples especially with 1903 pattern equipment that show practical variations in manufacture especially in closure techniques.

regards

khaki

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Good morning LF,

Those are great photos, I especially like the 'frozen in time' image of the cheering, although no doubt encouraged by the photographer it appears a very genuine moment.

regards

khaki

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I know very little about these fogs but I understand that the same basic Slade Wallace pattern frog (but I think not so many rivets) was being made as late as the 1950's by Hobson and Sons for the Royal West African Frontier Force!

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To answer your question, I don't believe the Frog is correct for your blade/scabbard. Exactly which Pattern is it supposed to be.?

From the photos it appears to be of the "Slade Wallace type" but I have problems with those rivets being 1. British and 2. Period

So I would be suggesting either 'non-spec', 'foreign' or reproduction. Best to post photos in Equipment and talk to the Specialists.!

Cheers, S>S

I took your advice and posted the images under equipment, so we shall see what develops, I have been giving some thought to the rivets and I am wondering if they were more prevalent in areas where the climate would rot out the stitching, eg., Africa, India and so forth.

thanks

khaki

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Khaki, from what I have been able to uncover from a little research, it appears your frog may be a Colonial variation ...

Something like Frog, Bayonet, Patt.1888 Valise Equipment ... being the Australian made version in the Brown leather.

I have seen a photo on the net which would be a very close match to yours, also made with the four copper rivets, so.?

Apparently the Australians made a local variation of the Slade Wallace kit. It will be interesting what the experts turn up.

Cheers, S>S

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  • 5 years later...

Andy,

 

The bayonet shown is a (British) Pattern 1907, and would come with a Pattern 1907 scabbard, readily available on-line.

 

Regards,

JMB

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