Khaki Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 A few images I thought of interest to you all, blade dated 12/1?, pommel marked to 1 WTS, not sure if the frog is correct for the blade/scabbard but I am sure you can tell me more, khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 A few images I thought of interest to you all, blade dated 12/1?, pommel marked to 1 WTS, khaki, Your Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet's Pommel is marked to the 1st Battalion The Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment ' WTS '., with the bayonet's serial number ' 156 ' also marked on the Pommel. The frog looks fine to me, and they were sometimes interchanged or replaced. From what I can see, the blade looks very nice. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 khaki, Sanderson Bros. & Newbould Ltd., of Newhall Road, Sheffield are listed as having produced some 1,600,000 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets during WW1, the second largest producer after Wilkinson's 2,360,000. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 August , 2015 Thanks LF, I first thought that the date of manufacture was 12/18 (with the naked eye) but when I used a magnifier I could see that there was almost nothing there where I thought it had been an eight. Does the unit marking suggest a much earlier year 1915/16 perhaps?, or is that an impossible question.? thanks khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 khaki, Some of the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet manufacturers did not really start their production until the outbreak of WW1, and Sanderson got off to a slow start with their Pattern 1907 production, as by 1st April 1917, they had only produced 52,726 bayonets, with the bulk of their production coming in the latter half of 1917 and 1918. Also, as your bayonet's pommel has a drilled clearance hole, that probably indicates it was manufactured after April 1916. Only the date of issue mark, will tell us more. As to the pommel mark, The 1st Battalion The Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment, were formed in 1881, and their barracks were at the Le Marchant Barracks in Devizes, Wiltshire. During WW1, they were some of the first into France, landing at Rouen on 14th August 1914 ( anniversary date yesterday ). I doubt that regimental pommel marking took place during WW1, mainly for security reasons, and also for practical reasons, with the regimental armourers being fully occupied with more important work, so there is certainly the possibility that your bayonet's pommel was marked during the inter-war years. As yet, I have not seen any indication as to when regimental pommel marking officially ended, if it did/has ? Out of interest, here is a photograph of officers and men from the 1st Battalion, The Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment, taken at Bouzincourt in September 1916, having just returned from fighting at Thiepval. Note the soldier on the far right front, who has a Wire Cutter attached to his rifle. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 What is the bipod-mounted, automatic-looking rifle in the foreground ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 What is the bipod-mounted, automatic-looking rifle in the foreground ? JMB, It looks like a German Light Machine-Gun, probably one the 1st Batt. Wilts captured during the fighting ? Here is a photograph of a German Spandau 7.92 mm L.M.G., which looks similar ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 August , 2015 I thought it was a Lewis Gun without the pan magazine?? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 I thought it was a Lewis Gun without the pan magazine?? khaki khaki, I know nothing about Lewis Machine-Guns, so I am sure you are right. Here is a photograph for comparison, the butt and the hand-grip look the same, I can also see the Lewis Gun's cooling fins/blades just before the outer casing starts. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 August , 2015 Share Posted 15 August , 2015 ... not sure if the frog is correct for the blade/scabbard but I am sure you can tell me more. To answer your question, I don't believe the Frog is correct for your blade/scabbard. Exactly which Pattern is it supposed to be.? From the photos it appears to be of the "Slade Wallace type" but I have problems with those rivets being 1. British and 2. Period So I would be suggesting either 'non-spec', 'foreign' or reproduction. Best to post photos in Equipment and talk to the Specialists.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 I thought it was a Lewis Gun without the pan magazine?? khaki khaki, You are absolutely correct, here is another photograph of men from the 1st Battalion,The Wiltshire Regiment, again taken at Bouzincourt in September 1916, having just returned from fighting at Thiepval, along with their German souvenirs, and clearly shown are their Lewis Machine-Guns both with their magazines fitted and without magazines. I have also sent you a PM. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 ... not sure if the frog is correct for the blade/scabbard ... To answer your question, I don't believe the Frog is correct for your blade/scabbard. Exactly which Pattern is it supposed to be.? From the photos it appears to be of the "Slade Wallace type" but I have problems with those rivets being 1. British and 2. Period So I would be suggesting either 'non-spec', 'foreign' or reproduction. Best to post photos in Equipment and talk to the Specialists.! Well, if in service / field use in WW1 then a P.1908 frog, the webbing version, would be the norm for this bayonet - this is what I think SS means by his first sentence. As for the frog you have, it certainly does appear to be a version of the 'Slade Wallace' P.1888 frog, and as SS hints at, these saw a very long period of service, and I understand that they were used / made throughout the Commonwealth. The rivets look to be brass/copper with steel washers, which to my mind - I am by no means a specialist! - is not a GB thing. It could well have been part of a short-lot made for a Cadet Force! No markings at all, not even traces of an ink stamp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Good morning Julian, My thoughts are also that it might be a commonwealth produced example, hence the rivets, possibly the product of a small town leather industry. That could be why it resembles a Slade Wallace type frog. Probably copied from existing examples or patterns with functionality being the main concern over government specifications. I have seen other examples especially with 1903 pattern equipment that show practical variations in manufacture especially in closure techniques. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Good morning LF, Those are great photos, I especially like the 'frozen in time' image of the cheering, although no doubt encouraged by the photographer it appears a very genuine moment. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 I know very little about these fogs but I understand that the same basic Slade Wallace pattern frog (but I think not so many rivets) was being made as late as the 1950's by Hobson and Sons for the Royal West African Frontier Force! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 To answer your question, I don't believe the Frog is correct for your blade/scabbard. Exactly which Pattern is it supposed to be.? From the photos it appears to be of the "Slade Wallace type" but I have problems with those rivets being 1. British and 2. Period So I would be suggesting either 'non-spec', 'foreign' or reproduction. Best to post photos in Equipment and talk to the Specialists.! Cheers, S>S I took your advice and posted the images under equipment, so we shall see what develops, I have been giving some thought to the rivets and I am wondering if they were more prevalent in areas where the climate would rot out the stitching, eg., Africa, India and so forth. thanks khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Khaki, from what I have been able to uncover from a little research, it appears your frog may be a Colonial variation ... Something like Frog, Bayonet, Patt.1888 Valise Equipment ... being the Australian made version in the Brown leather. I have seen a photo on the net which would be a very close match to yours, also made with the four copper rivets, so.? Apparently the Australians made a local variation of the Slade Wallace kit. It will be interesting what the experts turn up. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Thanks S>S, I appreciate your research efforts in tracking down this variation, useful to everyone. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenadierguardsman Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 What scabbard type would the bayonet in the opening post have ? As i have the same, without a scabbard though. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 December , 2020 Share Posted 11 December , 2020 Andy, The bayonet shown is a (British) Pattern 1907, and would come with a Pattern 1907 scabbard, readily available on-line. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenadierguardsman Posted 14 December , 2020 Share Posted 14 December , 2020 Thank you. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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