Did Canadian troops use P14 Enfields?

[trenchtrotter]

The reason I ask is that in the history of the 4th CMR there is a late war image of a group of CMRs with liberated French citizens. The rifles being carried are not SMLEs! However the image is somewhat grainy but the do appear to be P14s.

Can anyone comment with confidence if they are likely to be P14 rifles? BTW they are not Ross Rifles.

Thanks TT

[4thGordons]

I would be very interested in seeing the image.

I have looked for a long time for images of Pattern 14 rifles in France. The received wisdom is that very few served in France and those that did were mostly (F) or (T) versions used by snipers in mid-late 1918. Unambiguous images of Pattern 14 rifles in use in France (as opposed to training in the UK) is on my longtime search list. To the extent that I have never seen one in perhaps a decade of actively keeping an eye out I would be surprised to see an image of Canadians with them but would not entirely discount the possibility (is that vague enough?)

I have seen several Canadian property marked US Rifle .30 M1917 rifles but the story usually told on those is that they were purchased in the early part of WWII. The only reason I mention this is that an M1917 would be very difficult to distinguish from a P'14 unless the picture were very clear.

One additional complication. There was a version of the Ross M1910 which was built for the British (referred to as the MkIIIB) which had a foresight protector just like the P14/M1917 so if one were relying on the foresight protector for ID that might complicate things!

Any chance of seeing a copy of the picture or full details of the publication so I can try and track it down.

Cheers

Chris

Is it the S.G. Bennett history here?

Edited 13 August , 2015 by 4thGordons

[Pylon1357II]

The Ross rifle was the general issued rifle for the CEF until it was replaced by the Lee Enfield No1 MkIII in 1916. The primary use of the P14 during the war was that of a sniper rifle.

[trenchtrotter]

Pylon, I am aware of the above hence my excitement finding the image!

Chris the book is in my hands. "the 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles 1914 1919". By Capt S G Bennett MC.

Toronto Murray Printing Company Limited 1926.

Image fronts page 142. Circa Oct 1918. Definitely CEF as patches can be seen. Has foresight protector and bayonet lug shown. I am much convinced. Will try and take image on phone.

TT

[4thGordons]

OK I have found the image.

It's interesting. I will be interested to hear what others think - but I believe these are MkIII B Ross Rifles.

The distance between the barrel band and the foresight (which is of the P14 pattern but was fitted to the Ross MkIIIB) looks to me to be too great and the general profile too slim to be a P14.

Edit

Also - the rifle held by the woman in the checked shirt wearing the Brodie helmet does not appear to have an upper hand guard (the barrel is exposed) where on a P14/M1917 it would be covered.

Edited 13 August , 2015 by 4thGordons

[trenchtrotter]

Pic

Late for Ross Rifles? I am disappointed if it is as I thought I had found the elusive!!!!

[4thGordons]

Yes late. And odd if they are using MkIIIB which were built for the British.

however I am pretty sure that is what the right hand rifle is - the one behind is less clear to me but zoomed in I think the bare barrel is visible on that one too.

here are comparison shots (I do not own a MkIIIB but it is like the standard Ross but with the P14 pattern foresight protector)

These are (roughly) to scale and show the longer thinner front of the Ross

Chris

Edit

Edit:

Here is a link to some pics of the MkIIIB and one specifically of the foresight/muzzle

Edited 13 August , 2015 by 4thGordons

[Beerhunter]

The primary use of the P14 during the war was that of a sniper rifle.

I think that you will find that that use was a minor use of the rifles, hence the paucity of snipers to us collectors compared to the hundreds of thousands of regular P14s.

[Pylon1357II]

I think that you will find that that use was a minor use of the rifles, hence the paucity of snipers to us collectors compared to the hundreds of thousands of regular P14s.

I was answering the question posed. Which was about Canadian use of the P14, not other Commonwealth nations, or the USA for that matter. I don't know the true numbers of these P14s produced but IIRC the US produced in excess of 2.27 million. Of which very very few were used by Canadians.

[4thGordons]

I was answering the question posed. Which was about Canadian use of the P14, not other Commonwealth nations, or the USA for that matter. I don't know the true numbers of these P14s produced but IIRC the US produced in excess of 2.27 million. Of which very very few were used by Canadians.

I think you may be conflating P14s and M1917s

There were approximately 1.243 million Pattern 14 rifles produced, and approximately 2.486 M1917s (according to most sources.)

I think the confusion here stems from "use"

By definition a very small percentage of P14s were fitted as sniper (F) (T) rifles Britain only selected from Winchester (235k produced) rifles for this purpose - no Eddystone (604k produced) or Remington (403k produced) rifles.

However it is thought that of the rifles that actually saw "use" in France and Flanders most were sniper variants. Some (probably larger numbers) of standard rifles saw use in the UK in training units - some were sent direct to India for use - and many went directly into storage.

So while it is accurate to say a high proportion of the P14s used in France and Flanders were sniper rifles (your point), it is also accurate to say that sniper rifles constituted a very small proportion of the overall rifles produced and accepted/used by Britain (Beerhunters point).

I have yet to discover any suggestion of WWI use of P14s by Canada but would be very interested if you have information on that.

P14s were supplied in quite large numbers to the Baltic states post WWI, and much later (post WWII to Greece)

Cheers

Chris

[Khaki]

Hello Chris,

Exciting quest that you have, indistinct rifle Ross-v-P14/M17 evidential images may be supported or discounted by bayonets worn (if visible), but I am sure you have already considered that option.

good luck

khaki

[trenchtrotter]

I think I'll go with the Ross Mk IIIB. Oh well not the P14! Thought I'd found the missing link?. But interesting that Ross being used so late!!!

Thanks all. We never stop learning.

TT

[Toby Brayley]

Sorry to de rail the thread slightly but what is the chap with his back to us using? At first I though a CLLE but the noticed a longer style bayonet (not an 1888). The picture must date from around mid 1915 judging by the equipment. Sadly no further info.

I would have gone for a P14 but if you look closer its missing some of the usual detail (or is it just me) and he is certainly not carrying a Ross bayonet!

Edited 14 August , 2015 by Toby Brayley

[trajan]

I think the bayonet scabbard has overlapped and merged to a certain extent with the helve in the photograph, and if you look at the top of the grip, the pommel seems to me to have the dished appearance on the top of a P.1888, appropriate for a CLLE - but I am no expert on these things!

[Toby Brayley]

I would say you are right Trajan.

I guess had better get some decent glasses! As you say it appears to be a short bayonet and it definitely has that 1888 style pommel, its the helve that gives the impression of a longer bayonet.

At least my initial guess was right!

Edited 14 August , 2015 by Toby Brayley

[4thGordons]

Pretty certain that the rifle in Tony's picture is a CLLE. The winged foresight protector, charger bridge and the bolt mounted safety appear to be visible.

Interesting to note that the chaps in the background and foreground have SMLEs, as do (I just noticed) the chaps in the front row of the original picture.

Chris

[Seaforth72]

The only Pattern 1914 (1926 renamed Rifle No. 3) rifles used by Canada as far as I know were the sniper Patt'14 W (F) [i.e. "Fine" Sight, no scope] in 1917-1918. Possibly some Patt'14 W (T) [i.e.,with scopes] late in 1918. In WWII Canada used some No. 3 Mk. I (T) [if there were any of that model] and No. 3 Mk. I* (T) in training in the UK. 1 Canadian Division had taken some Ross sniper rifles over to the UK in 1939 and these had the Warner & Swasey M1913 Musket Sights (sniper scopes) removed and fitted to Pattern 1914 rifles. These were then used in action in Italy in 1943. In 1937 Canada only held two No. 3 Mk. I* (T) sniper rifles (Ref. pp. 18-31 WITHOUT WARNING by the late Clive Law). 

In WWII when Canada was offered surplus No. 3 rifles from the U.S.A. which was not yet at war, but Canada declined. A little later when they realized they needed many more rifles, this supply had dried up. As a result Canada bought thousands of surplus Model of 1917 rifles from the U.S.A. These were marked with the C/|\ issue mark (arrow inside the C) and had a red band painted near the muzzle to alert soldiers that it was not .303 but rather was .30/06. These were apparently only used in Canada for the defence of Canada (Pacific Coast Militia Rangers etc.), by guards at prisoner of war camps, for training at army bases and military schools (e.g. RMC in Kingston) and by the Royal Canadian Air Force etc.

Ross rifles Mk. III were the standard Canadian issue in WWI until 195-1916. The Canadians had withstood the early gas attack near St. Julien in the Second Battle of Ypres in April 1915 and had many problems with Ross rifles jamming in battle. First Canadian Division exchanged theor Ross rifles for SMLE rifles in June 1915. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th Canadian Divisions were forced to keep using the Ross Mk. III until 1916. National pride and embarrassment.

The Ross rifles that Canada took out of active service in 1915-1916 were exchanged with the British for SMLE rifles. These Ross rifles were then issued to Royal Marines and Royal Navy. I have one of these unmodified Ross Mk. III rifles that was almost certainly used in the Second Battle of Ypres as it is issue marked to the 15th Battalion (48th Highlanders) Canadian Expeditionary Force. The 15th Bn was in that battle and the Ross rifles of the 1st Canadian Division that had not been lost in battle or discarded were officially exchanged in June 1915 for SMLEs according to their unit history. The British then issued those Ross rifles to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. My Ross rifle was one of those issued to H.M.S. CANADA (a total coincidence), a battleship that had been in the Battle of Jutland (before the Ross rifles were issued to it I believe). The RN/RM modified the scabbards, removing the Canadian leather belt loop and fitting a British throat piece from a P'88 bayonet (as I recall) so that it could fit a P08 frog. The scabbard's brown leather was also dyed black. After the war that ship was sold to Chile and its complement of Ross rifles went with it and were then numbered with a "D.A." number on body, bolt and bayonet. 

It was later discovered that the main cause of the Ross rifles jamming was the sloppy tolerances of the British ammunition as the Ross rifles and Canadian ammunition were too precisely made. This is reminiscent of the Vietnam experience with the M16 rifles. Approved for serve and then issued different ammunition in service which caused major fouling. In that case the rifle miraculously survived and is still in use in modern versions (e,g, M4 and C7A2.) The Ross rifles were wonderful target and sniper rifles, but they were not good as general combat rifles. That jamming problem was solved by enlarging the chamber, but by then confidence in the Ross had been lost. The earlier problem of the bolt blowing out was due to incorrect assembly of the bolt and that was solved by inserting a rivet so that the bolt could only be assembled the correct way. There was also a problem on a rear finger of the bolt head being damaged against the bolt stop.

Canada never used the Ross Mk. IIIB as far as I know.

The photo discussed early in this thread showing 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles (their horses were taken away mid-war and they were plain infantry at this point) was taken in September 1918 in the village of Saudement, East of Arras, France. The civilians had been living under German occupation for 4 years. The photo was a cropped detail view from photo " O.3158 " (Overseas series) of official Canadian photos (now numbered 3397404). A second photo was taken of the same group, O.3159 (now numbered 3397401). These photos may be viewed on the Library and Archives Canada web site in fairly high resolution. There is a mix of rifles in the photos. Ross Mk. III, SMLE (with leather sling) and possibly a Patt'14 (F) or Patt'14 (T) sniper. No scopes are visible. The presence of the Ross rifles strongly suggests that this is a Scout Sniper Platoon as Ross rifles were retained by snipers even after the changeover to SMLEs. 

 

Here are some copies:

[Mattr82]

This is a great thread revival. From what I’ve read from Skennerton’s books and ordnance records, Canada and Australia were similar in the sniping department with regards to use of the P-14.
 

Australia had the P-14 with a fine sight and ‘telescopes rifles’. These being SMLEs with Aldis scopes etc. 

 

With regards to Canadians using SMLEs in France. I’m glad the Brits gave you some excellent quality rifles in that lot. 🦘🦘 😎