Tunic cloth

[johnboy]

In modern times it was stitched on top of the collar. It seems as if previously it was stitched underneath on khaki SD, but it might perhaps have varied in the different types of battalion, especially those that were war-raised. All full dress examples I have seen it was stitched to the back of the upright collar.

Thanks.

[Muerrisch]

On page 31 of the second edition of my Duty Done, we see two photos.

One is of Lt Raffles, with flash clearly attached to top of collar. Undated.

The other is of six subalterns under instruction or attending a function. All the flashes are clearly attached below the collar. Undated.

Another: Lt Col. Delme-Radcliffe 2RWF in SD at Septmonts Sep 1914 ......... flash clearly attached half way up collar. Neither fish nor fowl.

More: all scarlet tunics in the reserve collection at Caernarfon have the flash at top of collar: officer, band sergeant, drum major, drummer, etc etc.

SUMMARY; NO DOUBT ABOUT SCARLET TUNIC, MUCH DOUBT ABOUT SD FROCK BUT NO OTHER RANK EXAMPLES FOR LATTER.

[Tony Cox]

Hi all

Thanks again for all your comments,iam glad you like the jacket I certainly do,story has it this jacket has not been in the public domain for over 40 years.

Tony

[FROGSMILE]

On page 31 of the second edition of my Duty Done, we see two photos.

One is of Lt Raffles, with flash clearly attached to top of collar. Undated.

The other is of six subalterns under instruction or attending a function. All the flashes are clearly attached below the collar. Undated.

Another: Lt Col. Delme-Radcliffe 2RWF in SD at Septmonts Sep 1914 ......... flash clearly attached half way up collar. Neither fish nor fowl.

More: all scarlet tunics in the reserve collection at Caernarfon have the flash at top of collar: officer, band sergeant, drum major, drummer, etc etc.

SUMMARY; NO DOUBT ABOUT SCARLET TUNIC, MUCH DOUBT ABOUT SD FROCK BUT NO OTHER RANK EXAMPLES FOR LATTER.

I rather suspect that there was no clear instruction regarding the attachment of flashes to khaki SD, or that there was an instruction, but that it was not accessible to all battalions which led to some improvisation.

[Muerrisch]

Looks like a man from the 2nd Battalions MMG section before WW1. Qualified range taker and machine gun instructor.

Thanks to the owner for some splendid images, including that of the subalterns with flashes from "Duty Done".

The jacket is not likely to be be pre-war: the MG badge and the R badge were only introduced in 1914 [Army Order 21]. Also, the second battalion only went into SD on their return from India in March 1914.

As a lance-corporal there is no way the soldier should have worn the flash because it was a jealously guarded privilege for full sergeants and above appointed to the battalion staff.

as collateral, a man newly appointed appointed sergeant cook [a staff appointment] within half an hour ..............."going round the cookers wearing sergeant's stripes and a flash"

Wearer had at least 5 years good conduct service.

.

[Muerrisch]

As an aside, there was strenuous official opposition to any wearing of flashes in SD, which 2nd RWF successfully flouted on going to war but 1RWF toed the line.

"Sir John [French] had ordered it off the first battalion [Aldershot] .......... second battalion took no notice ............ wearing ours and hoping for the best ....... we need not have worried, the C in C was occupied with matters of more import ......." From The War the Infantry Knew.

.

The regimental museum has the flash that Captain "Tiger" Phillips was wearing when he was fatally wounded in 1914.

[FROGSMILE]

I have forgotten what year the wearing of the flash was extended to all ranks?

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks to the owner for some splendid images, including that of the subalterns with flashes from "Duty Done".

The jacket is not likely to be be pre-war: the MG badge and the R badge were only introduced in 1914 [Army Order 21]. Also, the second battalion only went into SD on their return from India in March 1914.

As a lance-corporal there is no way the soldier should have worn the flash because it was a jealously guarded privilege for full sergeants and above appointed to the battalion staff.

as collateral, a man newly appointed appointed sergeant cook [a staff appointment] within half an hour ..............."going round the cookers wearing sergeant's stripes and a flash"

Wearer had at least 5 years good conduct service.

.

I had thought pre-war purely because of the shoulder title and had not looked to date badges, or wearing of flash below battalion staff.

[Muerrisch]

The flash was all ranks on the scarlet tunic and was returned to all ranks "after the war" according to Dr Dunn's book.

Being narrowly focussed on the Great War I don't think I ever sorted out when ...............................

[Muerrisch]

according to Wiki, "The wearing of the flash on service dress was extended to other ranks in 1924" quoting the Times.

[FROGSMILE]

Coming to terms with no return of full dress I imagine and like so many others wanting to brighten drab khaki. It was around same time that ORs collar badges were approved and sergeants began to wear their scarlet sashes too.

[Jerry B]

An interesting example of a RWF or's SD. As already mentioned, I have also not seen the one piece RWF title insitu previously and again as already mentioned, odd to see it with the flash if it dates before the 20'S, which the base sd does with the paper label. Perhaps he had a best tunic which he continued to wear at that date or was issued old stock or perhaps it has been enhanced for some reason. It looks very nice and I would certainly be happy to add it to my collection. The SD's and scarlets's that I own have the flash attached on the outside to the top in the same manner, as does the Mess dress I have.

[Muerrisch]

I think to postulate 1924 or later [the flash on a lance-corporal] for a c. war-time 2nd RWF SD bearing a very old India [pre-1914] issue sandcast S/T, a post 1924 flash, at least 5 years service and no medal ribbons stretches credulity.

Another thought: LCpl MG instructors [badge upper right] were rare. I do not have a single photo of such, although I do have LCpl signalling instructors.

However, our hobby teaches us to never say never!

[133.R]

[Muerrisch]

I have no doubt in my mind that the jacket has been dressed up to be more interesting.

 

First, the shoulder title was almost certainly made only in India for 2nd RWF, and passed out of use when they returned via Malta in spring 1914 or earlier.

Second, lance-corporals were most definitely not permitted to wear the flash, the staff sergeants would see to that, it was a most jealously guarded privilege.

Third, Range-taker was not an primarily an infantry skill except it  was occasionally used by Vicker MG men until the MGs were taken away in 1915. The badge was scaled for issue to all three branches of the RA, and not until the 1930s was it sanctioned for heavy machine gun rangetakers. I have only one picture of the badge "in wear" on an infantryman.

 

Never say never, but these are, at least some of them, ringing loud alarm bells.

 

Perhaps Frogsmile might comment please?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

I have no doubt in my mind that the jacket has been dressed up to be more interesting.

 

First, the shoulder title was almost certainly made only in India for 2nd RWF, and passed out of use when they returned via Malta in spring 1914 or earlier.

Second, lance-corporals were most definitely not permitted to wear the flash, the staff sergeants would see to that, it was a most jealously guarded privilege.

Third, Range-taker was not an primarily an infantry skill except it  was occasionally used by Vicker MG men until the MGs were taken away in 1915. The badge was scaled for issue to all three branches of the RA, and not until the 1930s was it sanctioned for heavy machine gun rangetakers. I have only one picture of the badge "in wear" on an infantryman.

 

Never say never, but these are, at least some of them, ringing loud alarm bells.

 

Perhaps Frogsmile might comment please?

 

Yes, I agree that the most likely scenario seems to be one of the jacket being dressed up to seem more interesting (and thus charge a premium price).

[Muerrisch]

Thank you ................. nice badges and flash attached to it, worth £50 to me as a set of items.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, 133.R said:

 

Notice that this, officer's tunic flash, shows the dimensions worn by officers and staff sergeants (HQ WOs and SNCOs), and the reduced size eventually adopted (circa 1924) by the more junior ranks is apparent on the OP image, where it can be compared.

Edited 12 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Jerry B]

On 12/02/2017 at 17:11, Muerrisch said:

Thank you ................. nice badges and flash attached to it, worth £50 to me as a set of items.

 

 

From what I have seen when I tried to buy a single example of the "Indian" ST, £50 would be the going rate for just a single title.  I'd also happily stump up that price for the the two titles and the flash.  That said I have quite a number of the flashes including earlyish examples, if it is possible to date these.