Did my grandfather serve anywhere other than India?

[SimonRobbins]

My grandfather served with 1/4th Battalion Somerset Light Infantry. I can only vaguely remember him as he died when I was seven but according to my father he always mentioned his service in India in WWI but never mentioned any other place.

I have both his Medal Rolls Index Card and the entries in the medal rolls themselves. Unfortunately, I think his service record is one of the ones destroyed in the blitz.

On the index card it states theatre of war 5G and date of entry therein 29/8/1915. That is the 1915 code for the Northwest Frontier area I believe. The medal roll itself is in three parts as below:

1. An entry just for the 14-15 Star on a page exclusively for men from 1/4th Battalion confirming date 29/8/15 and theatre 5g for all men on the page. Gives date of disembodied as 20/1/19, those dates are different for each man on the page

2 An entry on a page where, in the header, the section which mentions "Victory Medal and/or British War Medal" has had Victory Medal crossed out. The page contains men from a number of different regiments and other battalions of the Somersets. There is no theatre of war code for anyone on the page. However my grandfather is the only name on the page to be crossed out and there is a hand written annotation that the details will appear on another page.

3. This is the other page referred to in point 2. This page has not had the Victory medal crossed out all men on the page are 1/4th Battalion SLI all have theatre of war 6G which is the 1916 code for North West Frontier, but no other theatres are mentioned.

My problem is that the sources about the Battalion in general which I can find, suggest that 1/4th battalion went to India in October 1914 but moved to Basra in February 1916 and spent the rest of the war in Mesopotamia. That is only 6 months after my grandfather went to India. If he went to Mesopotamia why did he not mention it, especially as he would have been there longer than in India? Why isn't 6B also quoted as a theatre of war? Or did he really stay in India and how, given that the rest of the Battalion seems to have moved out?

Also he married my grandmother on 3rd August 1918 in Bath. What was he doing there as the war still had 3 months to run and he wasn't disembodied until 1919.

Any ideas gratefully received.

[ss002d6252]

2 An entry on a page where, in the header, the section which mentions "Victory Medal and/or British War Medal" has had Victory Medal crossed out. The page contains men from a number of different regiments and other battalions of the Somersets. There is no theatre of war code for anyone on the page. However my grandfather is the only name on the page to be crossed out and there is a hand written annotation that the details will appear on another page.

Men who served only on garrison duty in India would only get the BWM.

3. This is the other page referred to in point 2. This page has not had the Victory medal crossed out all men on the page are 1/4th Battalion SLI all have theatre of war 6G which is the 1916 code for North West Frontier, but no other theatres are mentioned.

These men entered a designated theatre of war so got the VM as well as the BWM. If he appears of a roll with the VM then he either served in the frontier of india or he went to Mesopotamia with the battalion.

Who was your grandfather ?

Craig

[johnboy]

You could look for the war diary at The National Archives website or on Ancestry.

[SimonRobbins]

Men who served only on garrison duty in India would only get the BWM.

These men entered a designated theatre of war so got the VM as well as the BWM. If he appears of a roll with the VM then he either served in the frontier of india or he went to Mesopotamia with the battalion.

Who was your grandfather ?

Craig

Thanks, presumably India as that's what he said and that's what the theatre code say, but if the Battalion moved how did he get left behind? Could he transfer to a different unit? If so why wouldn't that unit be mentioned on medal card or roll. If he did go to Mesopotamia why isn't the other theatre code against any of the names in the medal roll?

He was Bugler Harry Robbins service number 473 or 200034

[ss002d6252]

The medal rolls generally only mention the first theatre served in - not all rolls mention service in any further theatre.

Craig

[SimonRobbins]

The medal rolls generally only mention the first theatre served in - not all rolls mention service in any further theatre.

Craig

I must admit I haven't looked at many but the fact that there are 8 columns on the form for theatres made me think they would be used where appropriate. Maybe he did go to Mesopotamia, I'm just surprised that none of the family knew, as if he spent six months in India and then two years in Mesopotamia as the extracts of war diaries suggest, then why would he not mention it. If anything I would have expected him to not mention India as his time there would have been much shorter. Either that or part of the Battalion was left behind in India and he stayed with them. Is that likely? I suppose I will have to try and read the whole diary rather that snippets online. Unfortunately only the European diaries appear to be on Ancestry.com

[SimonRobbins]

Thanks, I put that in my original post, it's 5g on the medal card and 14-15 star medal roll and 6g on the BWM and VM roll. Both I believe refer to frontier region of India as the numbering system was changed in 1916. I should have been more specific rather than just saying India, What is confusing me is what I know of the Battalion history does not equate to what my grandfather had said and nor does it match the limited records I have which actually relate to my grandfather.

Of course, if as you say, the records rarely quote subsequent theatres, only the first theatre served in, that could explain the second point but still doesn't explain why he never mentioned it. If he had spent three years in India and only a few months in Mesopotamia I could understand it not being mentioned, but if his service followed what the diaries suggest then the Indian bit of his service would have been a very minor part of the whole and unlikely to be the only bit he talked about. Did people ever change units? Were battalions ever split with some going elsewhere and others left behind? Could that have happened and he stayed in the North West Frontier. If that did happen, would that be revealed by the medal card and rolls or is that like the theatres issue where only the first is recorded? Obviously India is a big place and as you rightly state not all of it was considered a theatre of war. However it was part of the Empire and presumably had a military presence even in peacetime, could it be that he left the SLI after serving on the North West Frontier and moved to some other part of India which was not considered part of the war and not recorded in any of the war records?

I'm just struggling to understand why someone who spent a significant time in Mesopotamia would tell his family he went to India if that was only for a few months at the start. I'm pretty sure he spent the whole time in India but struggling to reconcile that with the Battalion history.

[MaureenE]

The following link is called "More on the Siege of Kut al-Amara", from the website of Amitav Ghosh, an Indian author who has an interest in the First Word War

http://amitavghosh.com/blog/?p=6342

It contains extracts of diaries of members of the 1/4th Somerset Light Infantry which were published in the book No Thankful Village: The Impact of the Great War on a Group of Somerset Villages - A Microcosm by Chris Howell

Quoting Lt. Geoffrey Bishop, a draft of 30 men left for Mesopotamia in May 1915, and a second draft of 15 arrived in August, a total of 45. This would indicate the majority of the Battalion remained in India.

Cheers

Maureen

[SimonRobbins]

The following link is called "More on the Siege of Kut al-Amara", from the website of Amitav Ghosh, an Indian author who has an interest in the First Word War

http://amitavghosh.com/blog/?p=6342

It contains extracts of diaries of members of the 1/4th Somerset Light Infantry which were published in the book No Thankful Village: The Impact of the Great War on a Group of Somerset Villages - A Microcosm by Chris Howell

Quoting Lt. Geoffrey Bishop, a draft of 30 men left for Mesopotamia in May 1915, and a second draft of 15 arrived in August, a total of 45. This would indicate the majority of the Battalion remained in India.

Cheers

Maureen

Thank you very much, that is very interesting. Every other source I have seen merely states they went to Basra in 1916, like this one http://www.1914-1918.net/somersets.htm

No mention is made of only a small contingent going. I really need to get hold of the war diary I suppose and hope something is mentioned in there. The problem is it's not on ancestry.com and whilst I can visit the national archives it's not that easy and there's probably a lot to read in a short space of time.

anyway thanks again for a great lead.

[MaureenE]

Reading the accounts further given in post 10, it seems I didn't read far enough previously, as more men went to Mesopotamia subsequently.

"In February, 1916, we sailed up the Tigris from Karachi to Mesopotamia in an attempt to get them out. We were just under 800 strong"

However, it does seem as though at least some remained in India . There is an account by Pte. Jim Peppard , which sounds as though he was in India the entire period.

Cheers

Maureen

[CGM]

"...........there's probably a lot to read in a short space of time."

Think about photographing the individual pages for reading at home at your leisure.

CGM

[SimonRobbins]

Reading the accounts further given in post 10, it seems I didn't read far enough previously, as more men went to Mesopotamia subsequently.

"In February, 1916, we sailed up the Tigris from Karachi to Mesopotamia in an attempt to get them out. We were just under 800 strong"

However, it does seem as though at least some remained in India . There is an account by Pte. Jim Peppard , which sounds as though he was in India the entire period.

Cheers

Maureen

Thanks, I have read it all now and see what you mean. I have just been semi randomly looking at lots of Somerset light Infantry records on ancestry to see if I could find any reference to a individual in 1/4th in India after 1916 and eventually found this

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=albert+&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=pearce&_F8007A65=30383&_F0007CF4=Somerset+Light+Infantry&MSAV=1&uidh=muf&pcat=39&h=371560&recoff=5+6&db=UKsoldiersGreatWar&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

so there was at least one person in that battalion in India in 1917. I assume he wasn't on his own!

PS. I have just found a load more all in 1/4 Battalion all dying in India in 1917/18. Just need to kept searching until I get the right search terms.

[Guest]

This searchable history of the Somerset Light Infantry might help. Click

Page 93 of the book (page 117 of the e-book) covers the 1/4th Battalion and its movements to India and subsequent deployment. Note that when the first lines of the Wessex Division left India they were replaced by second lines, so in this case the 2/4th Bn arrived in India as 1/4th Bn were leaving. Men could easily be posted between 1/4th Bn and 2/4th Bn so it is possible that the man in question did spend all his time in India if he had subsequently been posted to the 2/4th Bn.

MG

[SimonRobbins]

This searchable history of the Somerset Light Infantry might help. Click

Page 93 of the book (page 117 of the e-book) covers the 1/4th Battalion and its movements to India and subsequent deployment. Note that when the first lines of the Wessex Division left India they were replaced by second lines, so in this case the 2/4th Bn arrived in India as 1/4th Bn were leaving. Men could easily be posted between 1/4th Bn and 2/4th Bn so it is possible that the man in question did spend all his time in India if he had subsequently been posted to the 2/4th Bn.

MG

Thanks for the link it looks very interesting, obviously I haven't read it all yet. Thanks also for the suggestion that he may have transferred to the 2/4 I wasn't sure how common an occurrence that sort of thing was. As I mentioned in my last note however once I found the right search terms on ancestry.com I have found a number of deaths in India for members of 1/4 Battalion in 1917/18 so it seems that some at least were still there at that time.

[kenf48]

He qualified for the BWM and the VM when he entered a designated theatre of war on the 29 August 1915 the date he qualified for the 14 - 15 Star when he was posted to the NWF, remaining there, probably for just a couple of months (see service record 1201 Kittlety). Kittlety is shown as serving on the NWF until October, although he returned home shortly after and was discharged on termination of his engagement. It's late so I don't know if the Bn returned to the Depot on the 10 October or just this soldier who, coincidentally was also a bugler.

You will notice the other men from the 1/4 on his deleted entry are shown as 'Depot' in India so it's quite possible that as a bugler he remained at the Depot after their sojourn on the NWF prior to the main body being deployed to India. The deleted entry was clearly a clerical error when it was realised his service on the NWF qualified him for the Victory Medal. His age may be relevant.

So family recollections are probably correct and he did not deploy to Mesopotamia. Incidentally sick and wounded soldiers were evacuated from Mesopotamia to India which may account for the deaths though you could look for any casualties around August/ October 1915.

Ken

[SimonRobbins]

He qualified for the BWM and the VM when he entered a designated theatre of war on the 29 August 1915 the date he qualified for the 14 - 15 Star when he was posted to the NWF, remaining there, probably for just a couple of months (see service record 1201 Kittlety). Kittlety is shown as serving on the NWF until October, although he returned home shortly after and was discharged on termination of his engagement. It's late so I don't know if the Bn returned to the Depot on the 10 October or just this soldier who, coincidentally was also a bugler.

You will notice the other men from the 1/4 on his deleted entry are shown as 'Depot' in India so it's quite possible that as a bugler he remained at the Depot after their sojourn on the NWF prior to the main body being deployed to India. The deleted entry was clearly a clerical error when it was realised his service on the NWF qualified him for the Victory Medal. His age may be relevant.

So family recollections are probably correct and he did not deploy to Mesopotamia. Incidentally sick and wounded soldiers were evacuated from Mesopotamia to India which may account for the deaths though you could look for any casualties around August/ October 1915.

Ken

Sorry but I'm not quite sure I know where you are looking. I can't seem to find a service record for anyone in the SLI called Kittlety, or anyone called Kittlety with a service number 1201 nor indeed anyone in the SLI with that service number.

So why did he return and was discharged so quickly after being sent there? That might explain why my grandfather was back in Bath and got married in August 1918. On the other hand, as per my original post the records show he was disembodied in 1919. What does that actually mean? Isn't that just another word for discharged?

Interesting that sick and wounded were evacuated to India, I hadn't thought of that as the reason they might be there.

[ss002d6252]

Disembodied applied to territorial soldiers, effectively it meant they were no longer called up on active service (but could still be members of the territorial force).

Discharged would mean a man had been released from the army, usually in respect of men who had signed up for wartime service only and were released at the end of their service.

Craig

[SimonRobbins]

Disembodied applied to territorial soldiers, effectively it meant they were no longer called up on active service (but could still be members of the territorial force).

Discharged would mean a man had been released from the army, usually in respect of men who had signed up for wartime service only and were released at the end of their service.

Craig

Thanks, the more I learn the more confused I get. I thought all of the 1/4th Battalion were territorials, is that not right? If so why were some disembodied and some discharged?

Also, are you saying that before he was disembodied he was still called up on active service? I was assuming it meant that he could be called up before being disembodied but actually he wasn't on active service. That makes it all the more strange that he was married in Bath the year before being disembodied.

[kenf48]

Sorry but I'm not quite sure I know where you are looking. I can't seem to find a service record for anyone in the SLI called Kittlety, or anyone called Kittlety with a service number 1201 nor indeed anyone in the SLI with that service number.

So why did he return and was discharged so quickly after being sent there? That might explain why my grandfather was back in Bath and got married in August 1918. On the other hand, as per my original post the records show he was disembodied in 1919. What does that actually mean? Isn't that just another word for discharged?

Interesting that sick and wounded were evacuated to India, I hadn't thought of that as the reason they might be there.

[/quote

Kittlety appears on the same 14 -15 Star Roll as your grandfather, it's alphabetical. His record is in the Pension Records on Ancestry, assuming you have access http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsln=Kittlety&gskw=Somerset+light+infantry&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yi4&pcat=39&h=430845&db=BritishArmy&indiv=1&ml_rpos=4 There are number of other men from the 1/4th in the pension records, most suffering from malaria e.g Maurice Payne and 200773 Thomas Williams, unfortunately Kittlety's record is the only one that references the NWF the remainder simply showing India before embarking to Basra and the Mesopatamian Theatre. However men were being admitted to hospital in Peshawar as late as December 1915. Peshawar then,as now was the gateway to the Khyber pass and Afghanistan. what they were doing their you will need the diary for. Another record shows evacuation from India to Egypt and then home again with malaria.

It's impossible to say what happened to your grandfather post India though I would have thought his marriage certificate or local newspapers would have some reference to his service. It's unlikely he would have been granted leave from India to the UK but not impossible. It does appear he went to India with the main body of his Battalion, and with them was posted to a theatre of war on the 29 August 1915 after that the trail is cold. His 373 number suggests early enlistment in the TF which was created in 1908, he may even have been a Volunteer prior to that. The re numbering in March 1917 suggests he was still on the strength of the 4th Bn and probably the 1/4 but it could have been the 2/4 or even 3/4, but in any event between then and his marriage he may have been posted back home and posted to a third line or Home Service Battalion until disembodied.

The confusion about 'disembodied' and 'discharged' is that his unit I.e. The 1/4th was mobilised for war service on the declaration of war on the 4th August 1914, the men were embodied at the same time and this meant they came within the provision of military regulation and this is shown as 'embodied service'. At the end of the conflict the unit and the men were 'disembodied'. This did not preclude Men serving in a TF unit being 'discharged' usually under the provisions of para 392 Kings Regulations while the unit was on war service, though the majority were 'disembodied' at the war's end. A forum search will give you previous and probably more accurate discussion.

Direct enlistment to the TF effectively ceased with the Military Service Act in March 1916 and with it any distinction between postings to Regular and TF units, men were simply sent where needed.

Ken

[jmta04]

Hi Simon.

As member of 4th Somerset Light Infantry, one assumes your man joined as a territorial soldier. If, for example, he were to have joined in the summer of 1913 his enlistment would have been for a term of four years, automatically extended for a year on the outbreak of war. This, then, would make him time expired in the summer of 1918, and ready to be returned home for discharge, where he would then become liable to the Military Service Act. Hence, under those circumstances, he could have been back in England and thus able to marry in August 1918.

With no service record available I can only suggest this as a possible course of events to explain his presence in England at this point during the war.

Regards,

Scobie

[ss002d6252]

Hi Simon.

As member of 4th Somerset Light Infantry, one assumes your man joined as a territorial soldier. If, for example, he were to have joined in the summer of 1913 his enlistment would have been for a term of four years, automatically extended for a year on the outbreak of war. This, then, would make him time expired in the summer of 1918, and ready to be returned home for discharge, where he would then become liable to the Military Service Act. Hence, under those circumstances, he could have been back in England and thus able to marry in August 1918.

With no service record available I can only suggest this as a possible course of events to explain his presence in England at this point during the war.

Regards,

Scobie

Once the MSA was up and running properly a man wouldn't have been time-expired at the end of his period of service - he was retained for the duration.

In early 1916 some men were being still be released as time-expired after the original MSA was introduced but this tailed off and men ceased to be released on that basis. Session 2 of the MSA altered the Territorial Force terms of service to remove the section which allowed release as time-expired (AO 202 of 1916) - http://www.1914-1918.net/AO202-1916.html

Craig

[jmta04]

Hi Craig.

Thanks for correcting me on that. So, in order to be returned home time expired, he would have had to enlist in the territorials 1910 or earlier. Although that might then explain why he didn't mention service in Mesopotamia ('cos he was never there), he would certainly have been picked up by the Military Service Act, and one would then have expected something to show up in the Medal Rolls.

As I say, thanks for the clarification, and my apologies for wasting every ones time.

Regards again,

Scobie

[ss002d6252]

Hi Craig.

Thanks for correcting me on that. So, in order to be returned home time expired, he would have had to enlist in the territorials 1910 or earlier. Although that might then explain why he didn't mention service in Mesopotamia ('cos he was never there), he would certainly have been picked up by the Military Service Act, and one would then have expected something to show up in the Medal Rolls.

As I say, thanks for the clarification, and my apologies for wasting every ones time.

Regards again,

Scobie

No apologies needed, any thing is worth considering (and sometimes we miss the obvious ones - or at least I do !).

A T.F. man on a 4 year enlistment prior in August 1910 would expire in August 1914 and then be retained for an extra year to August 1915 - in theory the main period for which a man could be discharged as T.F. would be August 15 to June 1916.

Craig