dgibson150 Posted 19 August , 2015 Share Posted 19 August , 2015 If... If...If... I have been trying to identify the front left sergeant in the Group photograph on the assumption that he is wearing a CdG ribbon. The list of French awards that Gareth has posted (#73) is the Bovington transcription of the 9th Battalion War History, About half of these French awards appear in the London Gazette Supplement 29 November 1918 pp 14095-6, from which it is possible to correct transcription errors and War History original errors. I have managed to get photographs of three of the four sergeants who were awarded the CdG, namely: George Swearer (not Shearer), 78439 who was a Lance Corporal at the time of the award Edward Canning O'Kelly, 201596 who subsequently attained the rank of CSM Arthur Henry Chew, 94989 who appears to have left the Tank Corps and joined the Transport Corps. There is no visual match between the sergeant leftmost in the front row of the Group photograph under investigation and the three pictures I have managed to get, Samuel Bonnett, 94835 looked to be a favourite for the unknown front left, not least because his service record shows that he was "A" Company and he in fact commanded crew I12 in "A" Company on 29 September 1918 in an action at Canal St Quentin. George Teece third from the left on the back row was also "A" Company. However Samuel Bonnett's service record http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=BritishArmyService&h=220928 also shows that he was promoted to Col. Serjeant and appointed CQMS on 18 October 1918. In the Group photograph the unknown front row leftmost looks to be a sergeant and not a staff sergeant, so this does not seem to hang together very well. We do not know the date of the Group photograph, but it would I think have to be early October 1918 for the Bonnett theory to be correct, unless of course I am wrong about the uniform worn by the front left winger. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghchurcher Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 OK so its taken a while to find the info but this should help. Attached is a similar photo I have, with the same WO centre, which includes a chap whose MM group I have (97219 Pte PA Beeley) with some original photos and paperwork. He won the MM as an acting Corporal with 14th battalion in September 1918. At the end of hostilities Beeley transferred to 9th Battalion with the rank of Company Quartermaster Sergeant, remaining with the Army of Occupation until the end of 1919 stationed in Cologne. This is the attributed time of the photo, which seems to be the same setting as your photo. Beeley is the Sgt in my photo, front row, far left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghchurcher Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 No doubt some one will correct me, but could the chap in the middle be the 9th Battalion RSM, and these are a series of photos of each Company with the RSM and the Company's NCOs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 The rank badge for RSM should usually be the WO I badge, whereas he has a WO II badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghchurcher Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 He looks grumpy enough to be RSM, perhaps although he is WO2 he has the appointment as Temporary RSM ? Battalion records should confirm, if I could ever find my way around the NA filing system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 Without even going back to the first OP photo, I recognise four common faces from it on this new one. And again there appears to be yet another different cap badge, despite the man in question seeming to have the Tank sleeve badge (the Staff Sergeant seated second from right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgibson150 Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 Stoppage Drill I can only see three common faces on the two pictures, ie the mystery man centre front, second from left front and leftmost on the back row. Which do you think is the fourth? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 He looks grumpy enough to be RSM, perhaps although he is WO2 he has the appointment as Temporary RSM ? Battalion records should confirm, if I could ever find my way around the NA filing system...Even as temporary RSM it was and still is protocol for him to wear a WO1 badge.CQMS Beeley MM is wearing superior quality riding breeches as a mark of his status. The man sat next to him appears to be the unit Armourer or Artificer and has a superior jacket with mitred cuffs similar to the CSM. The man with the odd cap badge might be RA as the overall shape of his insignia seems to suggest that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgibson150 Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 Geoffrey Your photograph definitely seems to be at the same location as Jim Hood's photograph (the subject photograph). It also seems to be contemporaneous, judging by the grass growths to the bottom right of each photograph, which is similar. It must have been taken between 18 March 1919 and 20 November 1919 for Philip Albert Beeley to have been on it (ref service record of Philip Albert Beeley)). My theory re Samuel Bonnett (post #76) is a non-starter because Samuel Bonnett was by the time of your photograph, demobilised. Interestingly, Serjeant Beesley's service record shows that he was "A" Company (his form Z10 was signed by the CO "A" Coy, 9th Battalion on 15 October 1919) so I would favour that the two photographs are an "A" Company "grouping" rather than an RSM appearing in a series of Company groups. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghchurcher Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 David that makes more sense. The subject photo being perhaps one of the Sections NCOs with the Company WO and my one being the Company's Sergeants with the WO, hence the additional Company Sergeants such as Beeley as CQMS. So there may be the other two Section photos with their NCOs and the WO out there somewhere also. That would fit with him being WO2 and not WO1. I have had a quick scan through the 9th Battalion History and Appendicies but there is very little info on this period, and no mention of names other than officers. I will have a closer look later at A Company's records for 1918 to see if there are any clues as the subject WO does appear on the earlier photo also (assuming that to be also 9th Battalion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.hood Posted 23 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2015 OK so its taken a while to find the info but this should help. Attached is a similar photo I have, with the same WO centre, which includes a chap whose MM group I have (97219 Pte PA Beeley) with some original photos and paperwork. He won the MM as an acting Corporal with 14th battalion in September 1918. At the end of hostilities Beeley transferred to 9th Battalion with the rank of Company Quartermaster Sergeant, remaining with the Army of Occupation until the end of 1919 stationed in Cologne. This is the attributed time of the photo, which seems to be the same setting as your photo. Beeley is the Sgt in my photo, front row, far left. Beeley%20PA%20Web%20P%209th%20Bat%20NCOs%201919%20A.jpg Beeley%20PA%20Web%20P%209th%20Bat%20NCOs%201919%20B.jpg Many thanks to all contributors for some great posts and, in particular, some fascinating additions to the thread from Geoffrey - some unbelievable pictures around the same time of our George Teece collection which help to give us a greater understanding of the 9th Battalion organisation, etc. and I find it particularly satisfying to identify some of the soldiers in these photos all that time ago. It is interesting to see your information on Pte P A Beeley and the fact that he was with the Army of Occupation, stationed in Cologne. I have two further photos which may interest you, which I post below:- George Teece is third from left in the "Cologne 1919" photo and second from left (straddling top two steps) in the Athletics photo). George was in the 9th Battalion athletics team that finished second in the British Army of the Rhine Championships on 17th/18th September 1919 at Cologne (TNA war diaries WO 95-107-7 Page 42): Could the commanding officer in the centre of the athletics photo be Lieut. Colonel H. K. Woods, DSO? I believe he was the Commanding Officer of 9th Battalion at the time. I would be interested in any other comments with regard to identities, ranks, etc. in connection with these photos. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgibson150 Posted 23 August , 2015 Share Posted 23 August , 2015 (edited) Jim The only thing I think that is certain about the athletics photograph, apart from George Teece's presence, is that the centre front officer is the same person as the third from the left in the photograph in Geoffrey Churcher's post #30. I do not know who he is, but I think it is unlikely that it is Lieut Col. H K Woods who was probably a lot higher ranked by late 1919. Can the experts identify the ranks of the two officers in the second photograph above (post #86)? David Edited 23 August , 2015 by dgibson150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 August , 2015 Share Posted 25 August , 2015 The first photo in post #86 shows beautifully the 9th Bn uniform distinction of the French 3rd Inf Div badge worn on the left sleeve. To post #87 . . . Colonel Woods had been appointed to command 2 Tank Brigade by early October 1918. A replacement had been identified, one Lt Col Llewellyn, who had no previous experience of tank warfare or, indeed, of the Western Front. Llewellyn arrived in Bermicourt on 17 October, fresh from a course at Bovington, intended for "further instruction in the field" but on the same date 9th Bn received operation orders which would take them into their last action of the war, viz. Forêt de Mormal. It would seem that Woods' second in command, a Major Butler, was given command of the battalion, and that in the event Llewellyn never took command. Maybe the brigade command to which Woods was appointed was a wartime temporary one, and he returned to 9th Bn as CO during the occupation period - I dunno. So perhaps the older, seated officer could be him, or Butler if he retained command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 August , 2015 Share Posted 25 August , 2015 Reinforcing Mr D's post above the Bn history states "And Major Butler was hurriedly recalled from leave to take over the battalion in the absence of LtCol Woods, who was temporarily commanding 2nd Tank Brigade." My records say that he was replaced by Lt Col A G McClintock in late Mar 19. McClintock was a 5th Lancer who was Comdt of the School of Gunnery prior to taking command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 August , 2015 Share Posted 25 August , 2015 Stoppage Drill I can only see three common faces on the two pictures, ie the mystery man centre front, second from left front and leftmost on the back row. Which do you think is the fourth? David All of the front row men in the first opening post photo with the exception of the right hand man, also appear in the second photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 August , 2015 Share Posted 25 August , 2015 The first photo in post #86 shows beautifully the 9th Bn uniform distinction of the French 3rd Inf Div badge worn on the left sleeve. To post #87 . . . Colonel Woods had been appointed to command 2 Tank Brigade by early October 1918. A replacement had been identified, one Lt Col Llewellyn, who had no previous experience of tank warfare or, indeed, of the Western Front. Llewellyn arrived in Bermicourt on 17 October, fresh from a course at Bovington, intended for "further instruction in the field" but on the same date 9th Bn received operation orders which would take them into their last action of the war, viz. Forêt de Mormal. It would seem that Woods' second in command, a Major Butler, was given command of the battalion, and that in the event Llewellyn never took command. Maybe the brigade command to which Woods was appointed was a wartime temporary one, and he returned to 9th Bn as CO during the occupation period - I dunno. So perhaps the older, seated officer could be him, or Butler if he retained command. Woods stayed as Comd 2nd Tank Bde until it was disbanded. 23 Sep 1919 WD entry for the Bde HQ reads: "Brigade Headquarters ceased to function today. Administration of Units will be conducted by Tank Group direct. General Officer Commanding, Brigadier-General H.K. WOODS proceeded to U,K, and relinquished command of the Brigade." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 August , 2015 Share Posted 25 August , 2015 Woods stayed as Comd 2nd Tank Bde until it was disbanded. 23 Sep 1919 WD entry for the Bde HQ reads: "Brigade Headquarters ceased to function today. Administration of Units will be conducted by Tank Group direct. General Officer Commanding, Brigadier-General H.K. WOODS proceeded to U,K, and relinquished command of the Brigade." Thank you. Can you find any references to Llewellyn, as a matter of interest ? The only source I have ever had for his putative appointment is his service record at Kew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 August , 2015 Share Posted 25 August , 2015 I can't see any mention in the WDs and Bn histories of a Llewellyn who matches your description. (The only Llewellyn I can find is H Llewellyn in 5th Bn who was a 2Lt at the 3rd Ypres and a Capt by Apr 18. He thus had quite a lot of tank experience and is quite clearly not your man.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgibson150 Posted 14 October , 2015 Share Posted 14 October , 2015 I think I have found a visual match for one of the serjeants in the original group photograph. In the Tank Museum Medals section they include a James McArthur Cowie with a photograph, attached below The photograph seems to match the front left serjeant in the first post, see extract also below. I am very interested in knowing whether or not the forum agrees. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 October , 2015 Share Posted 14 October , 2015 Yes, same man, undoubtedly. Well spotted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 15 October , 2015 Share Posted 15 October , 2015 I think I have found a visual match for one of the serjeants in the original group photograph. In the Tank Museum Medals section they include a James McArthur Cowie with a photograph, attached below The photograph seems to match the front left serjeant in the first post, see extract also below. I am very interested in knowing whether or not the forum agrees. David Fascinating thread. I think you're right about James McArthur Cowie. I've cropped and enlarged your photos to match in size. Hope this is OK. If they're not the same man, I'll eat my hat: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgibson150 Posted 15 October , 2015 Share Posted 15 October , 2015 Thanks. It is good to have someone else's opinion. Equalising the image sizes was a good idea Andy. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 15 October , 2015 Share Posted 15 October , 2015 Is Cowie's medal a CdG with Star ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgibson150 Posted 16 October , 2015 Share Posted 16 October , 2015 Yes, Cowie's medal is a CdG with star, but I don't know if the star is bronze, silver or silver gilt. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.hood Posted 1 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2015 I know I started this thread way back on August 1st but I have not accessed it for quite a while, until now, and was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few recent posts. Thanks to all for the ongoing interest and comments, and I agree with the latest conclusions concerning the identity of James McArthur Cowie on the left front of the original group photo. It probably has not escaped the notice of others but I think it is worth mentioning that I believe the same man appears on two of Geoffrey Churcher's photos in post#77 above (back left (behind Sgt PA Beeley) and on a previously posted larger group photo, extracts re-posted below:- Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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