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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

What could this Group be?


jim.hood

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Those who saw my “9th Battalion Tank Corps – Ranks of Officers, etc.” thread

will know that I have been researching my wife’s Grandfather, George Howard Teece, and his role in the Great War. He has left an excellent collection of photographs many of which relate to the Tank Corps and, in particular, the 9th Battalion to which George was posted, from the Army Service Corps, in October 1916, until being transferred to Army Reserve in November 1919.

I would very much appreciate any help in identifying what the group in the enclosed photo could be. Although I have no exact date that the photo was taken I suspect it was around the end of, or after, the war. I now know, from information gathered in the above thread, that George (third from left on the back row as you look at the picture) was probably with the 4th section of A Company, 9th Battalion in mid to late 1918 and after the end of the war in 1919 he was in Germany with the occupying forces. Indeed I know he was in the Cologne area in September of that year. I am not sufficiently knowledgeable on organisational structure, at that time, to know whether they would still be known by their individual battalion numbers/names as I think they were collectively known as the British Army of the Rhine.

I would particularly like to know the rank of the NCO in the centre, which may well lead to knowing if the group is at Company or Battalion level, etc.

Jim

post-115619-0-48993400-1438426001_thumb.

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If it was after the war you'd probably see medal ribbons for a staged group picture.

There is however at least 1 wound stripe showing which indicates after July 1916.

The man in the middle may be a Warrant Officer (someone else will probably be able to comment further). It looks like a group picture of a unit's WO's and NCO's.

Craig

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Subject to correction by Grumpy, I think the man in the middle front is a Warrant Officer Class II, probably the Company Sergeant-Major. The group may be the company headquarters (other ranks only).

Units within the British Army of the Rhine retained their individual unit identities.

Ron

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They appear to be wearing Tank Corps badges which dates it as post Sep 17.

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Hi Jim,

I agree that he looks like a CSM or WO11 but is the only one in the picture who is not wearing the Tank Corps badge. His badge has the shape of the Sussex Yeomanry--is it posssible to have an enlargement of his cap badge?

The Cpl seated extreme right appears to wear the MM ribbon, he also has a wound stripe on his left forearm. At least three wear overseas service chevrons on their right forearms.

Robert

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Thanks all for the useful info so far.

Old Owl:

I have tried to enlarge the NCO head and shoulders area but the original picture is not very sharp I'm afraid, so I don't know whether it will be good enough for a cap badge identification but here goes anyway:

post-115619-0-29295600-1438451965_thumb.

Jim

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Thanks Jim. Unfortunately It now looks quite different to the Sussex Yeomanry badge and I cannot say what it is--unless it is a Canadian or other colonial badge. It does look vaguely familiar but I'm afraid that I cannot put a name to it.

It may well be worth asking for the experts advice under a new topic--I'm certain that Frogsmile or Sepoy may have some ideas.

Robert

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For what it's worth, to me the "suspect" badge merely appears to be a well curved and polished Tank Corps badge, which is giving it a somewhat narrow appearance than normal. The gaps in the base of the badge in particular are a spot on match.

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The staff sergeant, sitting on the right of the warrant officer, is wearing a plain tab belt buckle which could indicate he initially served with the MMGS or Heavy Section MGC. He may also be wearing a tank corps lanyard...

but I could be wrong

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Stephen

I am mightily confused re the different sergeant's ranks. Why do you say "staff sergeant" and not just "sergeant"?

David

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Stephen

I am mightily confused re the different sergeant's ranks. Why do you say "staff sergeant" and not just "sergeant"?

David

The term staff sergeant at that time had two meanings, it was both, a rank grouping of specialists at unit (e.g. battalion) level, and the individual rank of any senior sergeant immediately below Warrant Officer II. Within the rank grouping that I have mentioned there were two levels, the higher of which wore a crown above his three stripes. Similarly, so too did the individual below WOII at sub-unit (e.g. company) Level. If you are confused do not worry, so are many, the ranking system went through a great evolutionary period between 1915 and 1918. In short then, any man with three stripes and a crown above is usually a staff sergeant, although there are some exceptions for men in other parts of the army, where different terms were sometimes used for reasons of tradition. To avoid confusion I will not mention what these are, as they are largely irrelevant to the Tank Corps that you are researching.

P.S. I concur with the other posters that the man seated centrally is a WOII (CSM). I cannot make out his cap badge, but it does not look like the 'standard' Tank Corps badge to me, even if bent into a curve as suggested.

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Thanks Frogsmile for your very informative post, I too was confused about the sergeants ranks.

I would be interested in any comments you, or indeed anyone, may have re: post #7 above from old owl about the WOII's cap badge. Can you confirm Andrew Upton's suspicions that it is a Tank Corps badge?

Jim

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Thanks from me too Frogsmile.

I must be blind. I hadn't spotted the crown on the right shoulder. Looking now at it more closely there seems to be something between the crown and the sergeant's stripes. Is that significant?

David

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Thanks Frogsmile for your very informative post, I too was confused about the sergeants ranks.

I would be interested in any comments you, or indeed anyone, may have re: post #7 above from old owl about the WOII's cap badge. Can you confirm Andrew Upton's suspicions that it is a Tank Corps badge?

Jim

I believe that it is a different badge to that worn by the other men, but I cannot make out whether it is from a different unit, such as yeomanry, or if it is a special warrant officers badge of the Tank Corps. It was a tradition for a great many years that officers and the staff sergeant grouping (plus warrant officers after 1881) wore a different pattern of forage cap badge than the men of lower rank. This might be what we see here, but we would need to research badges worn by the Tank Corps to be sure. I enclose a known Tank Corps badge of that type.

post-599-0-21148500-1438944611_thumb.jpg

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Thanks from me too Frogsmile.

I must be blind. I hadn't spotted the crown on the right shoulder. Looking now at it more closely there seems to be something between the crown and the sergeant's stripes. Is that significant?

David

Yes, the badge between is a trade, or skill at arms badge in silhouette. Examples would be crossed hammer and pincers for armourer or artificer, or LG within a wreath for Lewis Machine Gunner. It indicates a level of qualification and competence.

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From mid-August 1918 men of 9th Bn wore the badge of the French 3rd Infantry Division - a flaming grenade with a motto which translated "If you touch me, I burn", or something like that.

This distinction came from the support given by the Battalion to French troops at Moreuil (IIRC) in late July.

The badge was worn on the upper left sleeve. I think I may see it on the MM corporal and the sergeant next to him.

Maybe the old mince pies deceive me, but either way, presence or absence can indicate not before or not after dates.

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From mid-August 1918 men of 9th Bn wore the badge of the French 3rd Infantry Division - a flaming grenade with a motto which translated "If you touch me, I burn", or something like that.

This distinction came from the support given by the Battalion to French troops at Moreuil (IIRC) in late July.

The badge was worn on the upper left sleeve. I think I may see it on the MM corporal and the sergeant next to him.

Maybe the old mince pies deceive me, but either way, presence or absence can indicate not before or not after dates.

Yes it does look like a few of the men have the badge that you describe (see enclosed) on their left upper arm.

post-599-0-18182300-1439024056_thumb.jpg

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Well for my 2ps worth Im sure the guy in the middle is not wearing a tank corps badge, and there is no such thing as a WOs or NCOs Tank Corps cap badge. It was certainly not unusual for officers to wear their parent regiments cap badge, or headgear complete, with their Tank Corps uniform. I thought there might be a possibility that for some reason he was wearing a Tank Corps officers collar badge as a cap badge as it is significantly smaller and the collar badges come in quite a variety of shapes and sizes. The other possibility is that as this is post July (most likely post Sept) by presence of the French badge, it is a Canadian Tank Corps cap badge - perhaps seconded to or from that unit for training in UK, but it does not look much like that either ! On balance I think it is something else, but do not recognise which badge !!

Edited by Geoffrey Churcher
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I agree with Andrew Upton that the gaps at the bottom of the man in the middle's badge resemble the Tank Corps badge, but of all in the picture, the man in the middle is the only one without any trace of a gap at the top.

David

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Well for my 2ps worth Im sure the guy in the middle is not wearing a tank corps badge, and there is no such thing as an NCOs Tank Corps badge. It was certainly not unusual for officers to wear their parent regiments cap badge, or headgear complete, with their Tank Corps uniform. I thought there might be a possibility that for some reason he was wearing a Tank Corps officers collar badge as a cap badge as it is significantly smaller and the collar badges come in quite a variety of shapes and sizes. The other possibility is that as this is post July (most likely post Sept) by presence of the French badge, it is a Canadian Tank Corps cap badge - perhaps an NCO seconded to or from that unit for training in UK, but it does not look much like that either ! On balance I think it is the first option, but do not recognise which badge !!

Warrant officers are not, and were not then either, 'NCOs'. The RSM, assuming that the Tank Corps followed the practice of every other regiment/corps in the British Army would have worn an officers pattern badge.

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Frogsmile, As a novice, I don't really understand the point you make re Warrant Officers, NCO's and Officers with regard to their badges.

Also, the drift of the thread seemed to me to be towards the subject group being a Company unit rather than a Regimental unit. You refer to RSM. Does that mean you think this group is a 9th Battalion HQ unit?

David

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Warrant officers are not, and were not then either, 'NCOs'. The RSM, assuming that the Tank Corps followed the practice of every other regiment/corps in the British Army would have worn an officers pattern badge.

Agreed - but the point was simply that there is no special WO or NCO Tank Corps Cap Badge. Just the ORs brass or Officers bronze, both were the same size though the shape varied a little from oval to quite round in some cases. This badge is significantly smaller and has a slightly more pronounced nipple on the bottom, that ok may be the laurels on a reduced size badge, and the only option I can think of is he is wearing a collar badge as a cap badge, the designs of which varied more than the cap badges and are sometimes more stylized. It just seems unlikely - and I am inclined to think it is another badge altogether.

Edited by Geoffrey Churcher
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That Warrant Officer has very small rank badges. He is wearing breeches and has top-to-bottom puttees. He carries a riding crop.

Although he seems to have the Tank Corps accoutrements (the Tank Badge on his sleeve, and the regimental epaulette slide) is it possible that he is attached staff ? It is quite common nowadays for Corps Attached to wear the accoutrements of the host regiment, whilst still retaining the parent cap badge, and there is some evidence that this was the case in the Great War (see the famous photos of Noel Chavasse wearing RAMC badge on the Liverpool Scottish glengarry, for example.)

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If you blow up the WO badge photo in post #1 to 400%, it looks very much like a slightly smaller version of the OR badges. It seems to have changed, having more gaps, in the version in post #6. I think one may discount the possibility of a WO wearing a bent badge!

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