43rd Bde

[ddycher]

Maureen / Harry

Do either of you know who commanded the 43rd Bde before William Southey was appointed in March 1917 ? Got a bit of a hole on the forming of the 16th Div. I am filling (slowly). I know the Bde was formed in December 1916 but am trying to work out who commanded it before Southey took command the following March. I think Southey took them to Waziristan but before that its a blank.

The Bde's original name (the Sorarogha Bde) would imply that it was formed in Waziristan but again I have nothing to support this.

Any ideas ?

Regards

Dave

[MaureenE]

Sorry Dave, can't help.

Cheers

Maureen

[Steven Broomfield]

According to Chris Kempton (Duty & Fidelity, The Indian Army 1914-22), the Brigade was formed in March 1917 under command of 16th Indian Division in the South Waziristan Field Force, and had no earlier existence, so no help there, I'm afraid.

[ddycher]

Both

Thanks for reply.

Steven - interesting that "Duty and Fidelity" has the March date. I have the 1/9th Hants joining the Bde from the Secunderabad Div. in December 1916. William Barratt was also appointed to command of the 16th Division (concurrent with the Lahore Div. Area) from December. I have the 44th Bde joining the division from Ferozepore in February and the 45th from Jullundur in May. I show all three Bde's active in Waziristan albeit the 44th had left before the forming of the South Waziristan Field Force. The numbering of the Bde's also confusing as both of the Ferozepore and Jullundur Bde's had been formed earlier in the Lahore Divisional Area albeit without the numbers. Current thinking is the Sorarogha Bde became the 43rd in March 1917 but like the 2nd Ferozepore and 2nd Jullundur Bde's it was in existance prior to that. Will keep looking.

Have been thinking about buying the four volumes of "Duty and Fidelity". Are they all worth purchasing ?

Regards

Dave.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd say so. My wife gave them to me as a birthday present about 2 or 3 years ago, and they are volumes to which I turn often.

[ddycher]

Thanks will go buy.

Re. the 43rd Bde. Chappell has the 1/5th SLI joining in January 1917 and the 1/9th Middlesex joining in February 1917. Quick scan through the 1/5th SLI history shows that initially the Bde was to have been formed from 1/5th SLI, 1/9th Middlesex, 1/4th Wilts and a TBD Gurkha battalion. The 1/5th SLI were in Bde training at Burhan in Feb, with Divisional manaeuvres starting in March. The 1/5th SLI were actually ordered overseas from the Bde in March.

So Barratt should have been in Waziristan with the 16th before the forming of the SWFF.

Thanks again

Dave

[MaureenE]

This relates to the period from March 1917, but may not be quite what you are interested in.

"Despatches on the operations against the Mahsuds, March-August, 1917" London Gazette Supplement 12 April 1918

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30629/supplement/4501

Cheers

Maureen

[Steven Broomfield]

Kempton gives the initial constitution of 43rd Brigade as:

1/9 Hants (from March '17)

1/9 Middlesex (March '17)

2/2 Gurkhas (March '17)

2/8 Gurkhas (March '17)

James in his reference doesn't mention 43rd Brigade at all in reference to the 1/9th hants, 1/9th Middlesex and the two other British battalions mentioned by Kempton, 1/4th Queen's and 1/25th London.

In the War Record of the Hampshire TF, the short piece on the 1/9th Hampshires states that in March 1917 the battalion went to the Simla Hills and was split up, with two Companies at Jutogh with HQ and the other Companies at Dagshai. They then talk of a hasty mobilisation for Waziristan, which "fizzled out", and in June they went to the Plains.

[ddycher]

Thanks Maureen

The despatches show the 43rd Bde moving to Tank as a Reserve for Baldwins Derajat Column in the 2nd week of May. I had originally read this as the Bde being mobilised and sent up from the plains in early May. I now believe it was already at Burhan, probably from the previous December, but I dont have a definitive ref yet.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Thanks Steven

I had not placed the 1/9th Hants at Dagshai & Jutogh todate.

I had had them (along with the 1/25th Londons, 2/6th Sussex and 1/1st Kent) leaving the Secunderabad Div for the 3rd Lahore Div'l Area / 16th Division in December 1916. I had believed the 1/9th Hants went to 43rd Bde (where TBC) whilst the rest were split between the Ferozepore and Jullundur Bde's. Mobilising for Waziristan in Dagshai and Jutogh would put the Hants away from Burhan and challenges the hypothesis above. Another ref I saw googling today states the 1/9th Hants orders for Waziristan were recinded with them moving to Dagshai / Jutogh at that point. Still not clear as the 1/9th Hants didnt formally leave the Bde until they joined the Ferozepore Bde in June.

Unusual for Jutogh and Dagshai to be garrisoned out of Ferozepore. It had been garrisoned out of Ambala up to this point.Also your dates on the 1/9th Hants co-incide with the 1/9th Middlesex dates I have for them leaving the Bde for the Ambala Bde. This would leave no British unit serving with the Bde at Burhan after March and and potentially the Bde not forming again until the 1/4th Queens and 1/25th Londons joined in May. It also puts 4x British Bn's in or serving in Ambala ( 3 off Hants Bn's ie. 1/6th, 1/7th and 1/9th plus the 1/9th Middlesex). The Ambala Bde joined the 16th Div. in May

Food for thought. Thanks again.
Dave

[MaureenE]

Unusual for Jutogh and Dagshai to be garrisoned out of Ferozepore. It had been garrisoned out of Ambala up to this point.

A comment re cantonments at places such as Jutogh and Dagshai. These were hill stations. My impression is that they were of no military significance at all, other than to provide a respite from the heat for the troops stationed in the plains. A there were more cantonments in the plains, perhaps regiments from the plains were sent to the hill cantonments , dependeding on vacancies, and it was of no military significance just where they were sent. The expression " garrisoned out of" may not be really have much meaning for these hill cantonments.

Cheers

Maureen

[ddycher]

Maureen

Guilty of being sloppy with my verbage and I know better than to generalise like that.

In general I think you are correct. However in the Lahore Div. and subsequently in the Lahore Divisional Area, a number of the hill stations were classed as permanent stations and garrisons were maintained. Before the war, with the exception of Bakloh and Dharmsala (Gurkha stamping ground), all stations in the Div'l area had a garrison of British troops. Of these there were stations which had no native infantry and these included the hill stations of Solon, Sabathu, Jutogh, Kasauli and Dalhousie. Simla also but this not only covered by the Lahore Div. After the outbreak of war these garrisons were maintained and as you say troops from the cantonments came in the "hot season". The station permanent garrisons were made up of detachments of the Indian Volunteer Force (which we have covered together elsewhere) and as the war progressed the Gurkhas who took up addition residence in Solon and Sabathu. Jutogh, Kasauli, Simla and Dalhousie though seem to have remained garrisoned only by British troops.

If you have anything to challenge this pls let me know. Tracking the "garrisons" of all the div'l stations is my pet project of the moment. Had not realised how much of a challenge I had set myself.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Steven

Your connection with the Hants a huge break through. Taking this and going back and challengeing my assumptions I have been able to cross ref regimental histories and learn the following :

In November 1916 a concentration of the Bde was ordered at Tughlakabad, nr Delhi, in the first half of the month. Component battalions arrived late in the month and they then spent a month in Bn and Bde maneouvres. Along way from Sorarogha (Tughlakabbad was a winter season training camp atleast in 1915 and 1916) so the origins may go further back yet. It is refered to as the 43rd Bde in regimental histories. At this time it did indeed include 1/4th Wilts confirming the earlier 1/5th SLI ref. I am very weak on the 1/4th Wilts though so will set up a seperate post on this.

The 16th Division then was formed in December. It was concentrated at Burhan "for significant purposes" the same month. Exactly what "significant purposes" are I am still trying to find out. To further confirm what was happening troops concentrated at Burhan needs further exploration. I will continue to look into that

In January the Bde mobilised for N.W. Fronter. Units arriving at Burhan by last week in the month

February saw units continue to concentrate at Burham. Thought all to have been in place by end of the month. Included 9th Hants (had been at Burhan since December (?)), 1/5th SLI, 9th Middlesex and TBC local Bn's. Probably the Gurkhas you ref above.

In March the now formally established Bde comes under the command of William Southey. Southey confirmed as its Brig.Gen in March 1917. It's command structure November ~ March, the original genesis for this thread remain unclear, atleast to me. William Cross Barratt's role at Burhan remains completely unknown. Have confirmed your pointer that the 1/9th Hampshires, then still commanded by its original CO Col R.A. Johnson, arrived in Dagshai in March 1917. Orders for them (and the Bde as a whole) to proceed for action in Waziristan appear to have been rescinded and the 1/9th Middlesex went to the Ambala Bde and the 1/5th SLI to active service. I will explore this further.

So making progress. Again many thanks for your help.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Got it. Jacob Peydell-Bouverie - 6th Earl of Radnor (late CO of the 4th Wilts) was in command at Tughlakabad. Then GOC of the 2nd Dehra Dun Bde. The 1/5th SLI were attached until January when they joined the 16th Division. As were the 1/4th Wilts until leaving to join the 6th Poona Div'l Area in March. So Im again looking at the concentration of the Bde at Burhan but now definitively through February 1917 with the Bde truly coming into existance as per all the ref's in March.

Will clear this up I think as I understand the 2nd Dehra Dun Bde better.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Dave's response on the 1/4th Wilts thread worth copying.

"On November 19th, it was relieved of its duties by a detachment of the Hants Regiment from Meerut, left camp and proceeded to the neighbourhood of the Kutab Minar where a camp was pitched for the purpose of carrying out Battalion training, followed by Brigade Training. Lord Radnor our former Colonel was in command of the Brigade, the other Battalions of which were the 1/5th Somersets, 2/2nd Gurkhas and the Mahindra Dal Regiment of the Nepalese Army.

In February the Brigade which had trained at Tuglakabad before Christmas was ordered north for frontier training between Peshawar and Rawal Pindi.'

The Bde training at Burhan for February and March now confirmed in the 2nd Gurkha history. At the end of March the Bn's were sent to hill stations for rest hence Stevens note above on the Hants. The 2/2nd Gurkhas of the Bde went to Rewat in the Muree Hills. The 1/9th Hants were the only one ultimately to remain with the Bde. 1/4th Wilts, and 2/2nd Gurkhs did not return and the 1/5th SLI as stated above went on active service to Egypt. The Malhindra Dal Regt of the Nepalese Contingent proving harder and will take another look at that.

So I think I understand. Many thanks all.

Dave