Siege of Kut 1916

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

Just stumbled upon this thread.

I have 1 soldier below I'm researching, Im wondering how this chaps KIA date ties in with the fighting in the KUT area.

Thomas Jackson

Born Leyland, Living Whittle le Woods

Killed in Action: 9 April 1916

Mesopotamia

Reg no - 17369

Rank : Private

Enlisted at Chorley

6 Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Regiment

Thomas Jackson was serving in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq)

He was with the 6th Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Regiment who had been

fighting in Kut from about 6th December 1915.

His name is on the Memorial in BASRA WAR CEMETERY, Panel 27

Cheers

John Melling

[lancashire]

John Melling,

At 1140 hours on 29th April 1916 General Lake was informed that Halil Bey has been told that the garrison was ready for surrender.

A book which can be downloaded from archive.com Kut in Captivity with the 6th Indian Division has the most detailed account of events by EWC Sandes may give information as to what happened on the 9th around Kut. I'll also have a look.

From another book:

Battle Honours Tigris 1916 Awarded for the three attempts to relieve Kut-al-Amara The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, so possibly wounded and taken to Basra for treatment hence grave at Basra.

Page from Sandes book for the 9th April, try top right page to follow

Edited 28 July , 2015 by lancashire

[lancashire]

John Melling, the page for April 9th.

[David Filsell]

Certainly implied by Lancashire I feel. And again, "Its clear that everyone else knew about it!" is an assertion not a fact. Certainly some knew, but that simply does not equate with Townshend in his guilded (assertion) cage knowing. TWO proofs still needed.

[lancashire]

David,

Morning, as to who knew about if is given below a extensive listing but most telling surely is that as in his own book :-he backed the efforts made by the American Embassy in Constantinople

otherwise:

I don't think there can be much question about Townshend's knowledge of what was happening with his men. He says himself that he was allowed to see the American Ambassador on arrival in Constantinople, and while the information may not have been available immediately on his arrival, it sure as heck must have arrived in short order given the help arranged by the Americans in Baghdad. (Hazel from the forum)

Townsend had very pleasant accommodation, was treated as a guest, had free travel, had some British and Turkish staff, kept in contact with the American Embassy and there are numerous reports of him dining in restaurants, in addition to various of the “officers” groups using the Netherlands Embassy, the involvement of the American and Swiss Red Cross are well proven. It took another officer to set up “the prisoners in Turkey Committee, this officer also was placed on “special duty” to assist officers in escaping and was involved with their repatriation returning to Mesopotamia in October 1918.

Add to this Gen Melliss’s letter to the Secretary of State for War (August 1917), the Kings comment to FM Haig as written in his diary, a British parliamentary report 1918 and the escaped prisoners feedback.

The earliest external hard proof regarding conditions that I have found so far is of December 1916 given in telegrams confirms the following “I pointed out to Sir Cecil Spring Rice the deplorable condition of the British prisoners in Turkey which constitutes an offence at once against international law” this led to more involvement with American Red Cross which supplied clothing amongst other items to numerous of the interment / pow locations, all the above is easy to prove too.

Townsend even says in his own book that he backed the efforts made by the American Embassy in Constantiople and I can easily look up where and to some of the deliveries were made to so he KNEW Something for sure!

What is more disturbing is that initially Townsend requested parole for him self during the surrender negotiations, he again managed to obtain parole from Spain (his cousins book), he managed to obtain permission for his family to join him so without doubt he managed to maintain a level of communications when it served his own interests.

It is written that he was popular with his troops yet at the same time quotes such as “a list of recorded examples through Townsend career of him seeking action and promotion at the expense of others” comments on him are rather too frequent which along with others imply something very different as to what he promotes himself as!

As far as I am concerned any jury would still find "beyond reasonable doubt" as guilty.( it seem that the professional, learned authors, researchers, seem to be like minded the latter books and the web have considerable information on this subject)

J

[David Filsell]

I think I'm off debating this further - it's really getting nowhere. If any one can find the smoking gun I will be very surprised. It's been fum though.

[seaJane]

I have just run a quick search on Kut-el-Amara through the online Hansard site, and it seems that Parliament itself was still trying to establish news on the treatment of the prisoners between June and November 1916.

For what it's worth, here is the link to all references to Kut in 1916: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/search/Kut-el-Amara?year=1916 and to Townshend http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/search/Townshend?year=1916

I found this discussion of Townshend's decision to advance on Ctesiphon quite interesting: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1916/mar/30/the-campaign-in-mesopotamia#S5LV0021P0_19160330_HOL_58

[lancashire]

All, yes an interesting range of conversations bearing in mind it started with the Siege of Kut and moved on to Townsend, thank you all.

However in the process of searching for information, I also discovered that the Netherlands Embassy paid POW wages in some of the other ranks camps, their Ambassador was alos heavily involved in helping out.

When I was searching for American Red Cross involvement I came across an amazing site that delves into War materials, Shipping, Materials, Red Cross seeking permissions for medical staff in Central Europe, lifting of restrictions for medical supplies, merchant shipping / submarines and it goes on an incredible hoard of what of behind the scenes information. masses of subjects, the files are large I can't even post the index on the site!

I have posted this on a new Topic - Others - Red Cross Activities for POW's Overseas.

Seajane it goes into provision of medical equipment especially surgical gloves, how can the US sent teams of doctors and nurses to German hospitals etc...

[seaJane]

??

Was the US still neutral at the time? (brain fudge moment).

Busy afternoon ahead, I'll be back later.

[hazelclark]

??

Was the US still neutral at the time? (brain fudge moment).

Busy afternoon ahead, I'll be back later.

Yes it was.

H.

[hazelclark]

I am no longer sure what would even constitute a "smoking gun", other than possibly correspondence between Townsend and whoever, while he was still incarcerated.

H

[lancashire]

Hazel,

that was what I was half hoping to find in the US State telegrams (some indication as who was party to the conversations), however the fact that Townsend said in his own book "he backed the efforts made by the American Embassy in Constantiople" some discussion mast have been held short of see his diary's that will be hard to source. thanks for all your input, J

[David Filsell]

"As far as I am concerned any jury would still find "beyond reasonable doubt" as guilty.( it seem that the professional, learned authors, researchers, seem to be like minded the latter books and the web have considerable information on this subject")

I just could not excuse myself from coming back on this. It says it all really - judge, jury and executioner.

Not only that you have the nerve to claim the support of others who have also found no proof in support of your view that he "He dun it."

[hazelclark]

All, yes an interesting range of conversations bearing in mind it started with the Siege of Kut and moved on to Townsend, thank you all.

However in the process of searching for information, I also discovered that the Netherlands Embassy paid POW wages in some of the other ranks camps, their Ambassador was alos heavily involved in helping out.

When I was searching for American Red Cross involvement I came across an amazing site that delves into War materials, Shipping, Materials, Red Cross seeking permissions for medical staff in Central Europe, lifting of restrictions for medical supplies, merchant shipping / submarines and it goes on an incredible hoard of what of behind the scenes information. masses of subjects, the files are large I can't even post the index on the site!

I have posted this on a new Topic - Others - Red Cross Activities for POW's Overseas.

Seajane it goes into provision of medical equipment especially surgical gloves, how can the US sent teams of doctors and nurses to German hospitals etc...

Lancashire, i have been very busy the last little while but another Forum has been doing some digging, and it seems that the Turks severely suppressed communication with the British P.O.W.s from Kut. Maybe something will turn up. In the mean time, have not had time to read your other thread.

H.