Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Help with MM Record Please!


Allison01

Recommended Posts

Hi there

My first forum post so please be gentle with me! Not quite at the end of my tether but I can see it from here. Have been researching my Grandad Charles Burgess for quite some time now, just looking at medals and I have a photo taken in 1924 with him wearing his trio and what I have had verified today as an MM. I have his medal index cards and no mention of the MM, I can't find an MM record on TNA, If I look at the Gazettes one more time I may just burst into tears.

All this further complicated by the fact that he joined up pre war 1914 aged 15 and so his Index cards are in his alias name of Samuel Burgess. I know for certain that Samuel Burgess is Charles as it is all on his service record I obtained in the 90's with corresponding Regt No's.

So what I would like to know is, is it entirely possible for someone to have been awarded the MM and not be gazetted? and are the MM rolls complete.

Charles was 4th Middlesex (or Blackwatch helpful) 7332,

East Surrey Regt 28292

Scottish Rifles 35802

R Highlands 30815

Any explanations, leads, Nurofen gratefully received

Allison

post-123274-0-00687600-1436290017_thumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hello

welcome to the forum

The NA site wont work for me but the MMs are (I think) in WO 23 OR 24 - have you looked there ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7332 was 4 Middlesex. There is a very informative 1914-15 Medal Roll in ancestry.

RM

7332 4 Middlesex

S/28292 8 East Surrey

35802 5/6 Scottish Rifles

All service medals seem to have been processed through the Scottish Rifles. He was transferred to the Special Reserve on 19 February 1919.

RM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies, unfortunately I can't find anything on TNA that I haven't already found on Ancestry. No MM info sadly. Very frustrating!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I suggest that you have another look at his M.I.C? The reason I say this is that I have a relative`s M.I.C. and the only reference to his having been awarded the M.M. is a small "M.M." entered into the box containing his surname.

Some kindly forum pal found the Gazette page for me, which was great, but it is simply an entry with name and number etc, and no clue as to why the award was made.

Unless your relative was an officer, I fear that you may never find out why it was awarded, unless there is a mention in the battalion war diary.

Good luck with your research. I`m sure someone will come up with the Gazette page for you. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HI

Also try local newspapers at the time, they may mention why.

As mentioned above LG only has the record, not why, and it is a pain to search.

regards

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

its WO/372/23 for MM and DCM cards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

looked and cant find

did he serve after ww1 ? maybe an inter war award ? clutching at straws admittedly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hiya

Yes he did serve in India with the Blackwatch between wars (and served in WW2) but I'm pretty sure its an MM you can see in the attached pic. There is something by his name on the card but I think it's a question mark which would be about right! I don't even mind not knowing why he got it, just proof that he did would be good enough!

Will give local papers another go (he was from Islington) thank you for all the help and suggestions

Allison

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I suggest that you have another look at his M.I.C? The reason I say this is that I have a relative`s M.I.C. and the only reference to his having been awarded the M.M. is a small "M.M." entered into the box containing his surname.

Some kindly forum pal found the Gazette page for me, which was great, but it is simply an entry with name and number etc, and no clue as to why the award was made.

Unless your relative was an officer, I fear that you may never find out why it was awarded, unless there is a mention in the battalion war diary.

Good luck with your research. I`m sure someone will come up with the Gazette page for you. :thumbsup:

I have something similar, a Split group from which I have his VM and his MIC just has a little (mm*) in brackets next to his surname and the Gazette entry just lists him along with lots of others as getting it.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

not all MIC state MM (if awarded)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once had 15 star to man whose MIC had no mention of the MM & I had no idea of it. No record of service survived. BUT, researcher looked at the medal rolls for the BWM & VICTY & in a red ink note by his name were the letters "MM" & no more. Once that was known the researcher checked the LG & found it. So no telling where one might find the award listed other than the usual places. Good luck with search & hope you find it & can share the details with us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, not quite ready to give up yet but am slightly concerned I can't find it in the Gazette. Have just been scrutinizing his MIC and it is definitely just a question mark by his name. I don't want to think he is wearing someone else's medal but it has been suggested that they might sometimes borrow medals for photographs. Which apart from anything else is extremely inconvenient for future generations trying to piece together history.

I am reading through the Middlesex War Diaries at the minute actually so will keep an eye out for any mentions.

Was looking into the story that he was involved with the firing squad that shot Pte Scotton also of the 4th Middlesex. It's a story my dad would talk about quite a bit and how it had upset granddad. I suspect that will remain an unknown.

Not easy trying to tackle just one mystery at a time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

try a post on the British Medal Forum - the person I would have suggested (collectorsguide) on this site hasnt been here for a few months but you could try a PM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks I will try the British Medal Forum, have been waiting since yesterday to get my membership authorised.

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.

I am reading through the Middlesex War Diaries at the minute actually so will keep an eye out for any mentions.

It might also be worth having a look in the diary for the Adjutant and Quarter-Master General for the Division Sometimes they contain things like:

post-113776-0-79572600-1436350690_thumb.

Regards

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ooh that's great Chris, I will do a search for those. Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To add a little to dates. L/Cpl S Burgess, 7332, Middlesex Regiment, is listed as wounded in the Daily Casualty List of 12 August 1916. (the genealogist) He would actually have been wounded a few weeks before that. He might have been posted to another regiment on his return to duty. I have tried the other serial numbers and haven't found anything.

RM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh thank you for looking that's very kind, have been dithering about diamond The Genealogist membership, its horribly expensive when I already have Ancestry membership, and findmypast but they do seem to have more records I may have to take the plunge.

Charles was admitted to hospital with shell shock June 1916 discharged from Base Depot Etaples on 4th July 1916, transferred to the East Surreys and posted to 8th Battalion on 20th September(wounded in action on 30th September). That's very interesting thank you again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh thank you for looking that's very kind, have been dithering about diamond The Genealogist membership, its horribly expensive when I already have Ancestry membership, and findmypast but they do seem to have more records I may have to take the plunge.

Charles was admitted to hospital with shell shock June 1916 discharged from Base Depot Etaples on 4th July 1916, transferred to the East Surreys and posted to 8th Battalion on 20th September(wounded in action on 30th September). That's very interesting thank you again.

I'll try the East Surrey number again to see if he's listed for the September wound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aah thank you, he was wounded for the final time before he was done with WW1 whilst with the Scottish Rifles 2/6th Battalion(No 35802) gun shot wound to right arm on 23rd October(22 general hospital Dannes Camieres) and from there and various CCS's and hospitals made his way home where he was discharged on June 9th 1919 then re-enlisted into the Black Watch on 10th June 1919.

He was in India through the early to mid 20's then did it all again in WW2 and was finally released from Army Reserve in 1954.

He was a bit of a so and so my granddad, the story goes he joined back up quick because he had a fight with my nan who kicked him out over another woman he was seeing which actually the electoral rolls bear out as at one stage at this time he was living with his stepdad, bearing in mind he was only 18/19 and married with his first child and had just gone through his teenage years fighting in the war he joined at 15. I can forgive him, and more importantly I know she eventually did!

Am very grateful that you are taking the trouble to do a couple of look ups, thanks again

Allison

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you 100% the photo is him? You mention the possibility of borrowing medals for photos, which I would be very surprised at a serving soldier doing. But those medal ribbons are worn very long indeed, and it does strike me as odd that he could have walked around for long without being pulled up by an NCO or officer and told to make them a more normal length. And it's not as if he would have been short of comrades who knew how to mount and wear medals. And his uniform doesn't have any wound stripes or overseas chevrons - I'm not expert enough to know if they were still being worn in 1924 though, and in that order of dress, so that might be a red herring. But I'm wondering if he's a serving soldier at all, and not just a civilian dressing up in a photographer's studio? But if you know for certain that it's him, of course, my theory goes up the wall!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is absolutely him! Its not a found photo just one of very many family pics I have of him right through to my childhood, as any other family has! As I say I have his records all is in order, he was a soldier through and through just a question of the MM. You can see another pic of him in my gallery in India with my nan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well he wouldnt be the first soldier to add a medal

have you checked his death certificate (or something else) that might say MM ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes I have his death certificate no MM unfortunately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...