4thGordons Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 I have been looking for a decent 07-15 Berthier rifle that I could afford for ages, it was the most obvious gap in my WWI rifle line-up. There seem to be virtually unissued, very expensive ones (inc. Remington made) and a reasonable number of really ratty ones, lots more Mle '16 and Mle '16 conversions of 07-15s (and lots of 1892 and 1916 carbines) but for some reason I have had a hard time with a standard 07-15. I am happy to say I finally found one. It is not a perfect example but it has some interesting points. I don't know a huge amount about Berthiers and there appears to be some conflicting information on some elements so I am working through the literature. This one has been converted for for the Balle N (1930s) cartridge but it remains in the 3 rnd format. All the numbers I can find (action/barrel/bolt/furniture, floorplate) match and there are a couple of cartouches on the butt. The furniture and metalwork are in very nice condition and the bore is super. The rifle is also fitted with a "night" / "low light" sight. As I understand it versions of these were fitted during the war and several sources speak of 1916 MAC rifles like this being the type fitted but I think there was also a post-war version and this may well be that (the rear sight in particular looks more like that). These Berthiers are interesting as they have a large block front sight with a centering notch in it as opposed to the more normal blade. Anyway - here it is. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegwf Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 A nice rifle Chris! Thanks for including the pictures of the "low light sights", I had no idea any weapons were outfitted with that type of sighting system as they are very common on current rifles and handguns. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Thanks, Gene I am familiar with the modern "Titrium" sight set up - I believe the wartime French version of this had two dots either side of the rear sight notch much like many of the modern sights do, rather than the single dot here. Originally I think radium paste was used! I am still looking in to the specifics of the sights/ version. There were also luminous sights manufactured in quite large numbers for the SMLE and the British had tried versions of them as early as 1903. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Nice example Chris. Nice cartouche. Mai 1916? My example posted previously has the two dot night sight on rear sight FYI so yours is poss post WW1? Mine was a ST Etienne example. Always nice to see these. I seek a carbine now in the UK Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 You will of course shoot this, I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Nice example Chris. Nice cartouche. Mai 1916? My example posted previously has the two dot night sight on rear sight FYI so yours is poss post WW1? Mine was a ST Etienne example. Always nice to see these. I seek a carbine now in the UK Regards TT Thanks TT - I thought it did but I didn't remember. I think it probably is a post war sight on mine. I now have a Lebel m86/93, an m07-15, a m16, and 07-15/m16 conversion, m1892 carbine and an m1916; so most of the French basics although I would like to find one of the 02/07 Senegalese rifles. Carbines are still available pretty easily here although some of them are a little rough. I also have this interesting Post WWII Turkish Conversion of the 07-15 using Mauser style parts (note foresight protector like a Kar 88, mauser style band and handguard protector) These were issued to the Turkish Forest Service protecting valuable timber areas - the idea was that the odd calibre would mean even if stolen/captured the would not be a ready supply of ammunition. Not strictly WWI of course but does show how long this rifle stayed around! I actually bought this "by mistake" sight unseen it was described as a "3 -shot Berthier rifle" so I took a punt on it - and was a bit disappointed but it was very cheap so I held on to it for curiosity value You will of course shoot this, I hope. It was certainly purchased with that intention - although I probably won't shoot it all that much but I do try and shoot most of them occasionally and all of them at least once for comparative purposes. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Have seen those Turkish Foresty ones before. Strange. It's the 92 carbine I think I want. See many images of French MG crews with them. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Very nice find Chris, and I share in your joy at finding a long elusive 'want' for your collection! ... I had no idea any weapons were outfitted with that type of sighting system as they are very common on current rifles and handguns. ... There were also luminous sights manufactured in quite large numbers for the SMLE and the British had tried versions of them as early as 1903. Just to add that a luminous sight system was provided for the Gew.98 in 1915 - a double horizontal bar attachment at the near sight and a folding-down circular sight at the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 I've had and have numerous Springfields, Enfields, and Mausers, but never a French rifle of any sort. Please, let us know how it shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 The reason for the ? is this 1892 carbine has some features of the M16 and is marked M16 too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Chris, superb. Have you detailed pics of the two carbines . That's next on my list especially the earlier model. Your post has made me look at my 07/15 again TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Chris, superb. Have you detailed pics of the two carbines . That's next on my list especially the earlier model. Your post has made me look at my 07/15 again TT I can take some. Neither are great examples but they show some of the variations. Is there any particular aspect you would like photographed? The Mle 1890/92/16 is a bit of a mish-mash - early receiver and still in 3 rnd format but with cleaning rod channel filled etc The Mle 16 is pretty standard I think. Here's the Lebel with typo corrected! (but now I can't get it back in the original post!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegwf Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Chris, Could you post some photos of the low light sighting systems from the Mauser and Enfield rifles? And a Happy Independence Day to you. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Chris, I am certain that the accepted abbreviation for the French rifles is MLE as in "Fusil Modèle" and you are blatantly 'in error' to use the incorrect term Mlle. Better get back to fixing up all those 'typos'. Good luck with that.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Arghhhh you got me..... SS Off to take my immodium! Chris, Could you post some photos of the low light sighting systems from the Mauser and Enfield rifles? And a Happy Independence Day to you. Gene Unfortunately I cannot from my collection as I do not own any! My M1916 Berthier (not pictured above) also has the two dot rear sight but no foresight.... However the SMLE sights are documented in a number of OL sources If you search "SMLE luminous sights" you will see pictures of the Enfield ones, they are also covered in several Enfield publications. There are examples in the Pattern Room in the UK. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Some carbine detail shots: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Very nice rifle 4thGordons, be sure to give us a range report if you take it shooting. -Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Better get back to fixing up all those 'typos'. Good luck with that.! Chris, you missed a couple of those 'typos'. Check out those Musquetoons for an Mlle that got away.!! And my 'reference' is attached below FYI. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Thanks for pics Chris. Not common here. There were some at the fair where I aquired my 07/1( but next one not till Jan. still seeking a U.S. M17 too! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayg Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Nice rifles and that new 07/15 is a real beauty, Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Nice rifles and that new 07/15 is a real beauty, Ray Thanks Ray...was worth the wait I think Just browsing looking at various guides etc and this page popped up - nice 1 page basic overview May be of interest TT? THIS TOO is a good overview Interestingly it appears to show that the Mle 1892 and Mle 1916 carbines did not have finger grooves in stock - where mine do? I have just got a line on an Mle 1890 cav. carbine so we will see how that pans out... watch this space. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeRover Posted 12 July , 2015 Share Posted 12 July , 2015 Very Nice 07-15, and, as you say, in better shape than most. Any visible roundel is a bonus in my view. Only my Lebel has the roundel visible, and a nice crisp one at that as it's in excellent condition. The remainder of my French arms are well worn. I did have an Mle 1907 "Colonial" Berthier for a while, but moved it on a year ago - something I now regret. Good luck in your search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 13 July , 2015 Share Posted 13 July , 2015 Which of the carbines had the cleaning rod please? Getting confused. Also I know Mle 07/15 16 Berthiers saw very little WW1 service. Was this the same for the 16 carbine? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 13 July , 2015 (edited) This page shows what purport to be three models 1890/1892/1916 in their "original condition/format" and all have cleaning rods. Whether this was the case in wartime use I do not know - one would assume it may have been if it was retained on the Mle 1916. It also make reference to the "myriad" of modifications done over the years, there seems to be a lot of examples exhibiting mixed elements. The channel for the rod appears to have been filled (with neatly inletted wood) on lots of examples, and cleaning rods are not present on the vast majority of examples I have looked at (which doesn't mean they shouldn't be of course - just they are not) I just realized the 1890 Cavalry Carbine I have been looking at has had the forend cut back to the 1892/1916 length and with a 1892/16 bayonet mount fitted although it remains marked 1890. I did not know the 07/15 - 16 Berthiers saw little WWI service so I don't know the answer re the carbine conversions. I really need to find a good reference on all of these as my knowledge is significantly lacking. I am sure somewhere I saved a very detailed page surveying the types - I'll see if I can find it. Chris Here is the page I was thinking of. I need to reread it. Edited 13 July , 2015 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 13 July , 2015 Share Posted 13 July , 2015 Hmm difficult subject as so many modifications. All I have been looking at have stacking rod / stud forend similar to Lebel and 07/15. Re the 07/15 M16 yes little WW 1 service. Meanwhe here is cartouche / acceptance stamp from my 07/15. Mai 1917. Mark on my Lebel is present but only a faint shadow through wear. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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