Lieutenant d. Reserve Heinrich Steiner - A Grave Mystery

[ph0ebus]

Block 3 Grab 19 date 26.04.1918 is Friedrick Beuscher

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Friedrich-Beuscher_Soldaten_0_589655.html

Block 3 Grab 16 date 24.04.1918 is Heinrich Dreehsen

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Heinrich-Dreehsen_Soldaten_0_589748.html

Block 3 Grab 32 date 27.04.1918 is Heinrich Kahle

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Heinrich-Kahle_Soldaten_0_589993.html

Block 3 Grab 17 date 24.04.1918 is Paul Friedrich Kühne

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Paul-Friedrich-K%C3%BChne_Soldaten_0_590089.html

Block 3 Grab 34 date 29.04.1918 is Rudolf Ohde

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Rudolf-Ohde_Soldaten_0_595181.html

Block 3 Grab 35 date 30.04.1918 is Wilhelm Schmidt

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Wilhelm-Schmidt_Soldaten_0_595342.html

Block 3 Grab 37 date 30.04.1918 is Andreas Christian Sörensen

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Andreas-Christian-S%C3%B6rensen_Soldaten_0_595412.html

[ph0ebus]

Combining both lists:

Block 3 Grab 15 24.04.1918 Richard Strutz

Block 3 Grab 16 date 24.04.1918 is Heinrich Dreehsen

Block 3 Grab 17 date 24.04.1918 is Paul Friedrich Kühne

Block 3 Grab 18 25.04.1918 Georg Busack

Block 3 Grab 19 26.04.1918 Friedrich Beuscher

Block 3 Grab 20 26.04.1918 Ludwig Wentz

Block 3 Grab 21 26.04.1918 Johann Werner

Block 3 Grab 22 27.04.1918 Johann Kiefer

Block 3 Grab 23 26.04.1918 Karl Koring

Block 3 Grab 24 26.04.1918 Bernard Vehoff

Block 3 Grab 25 27.04.1918 Heinrich Huge

Block 3 Grab 26 (?? 25.04.1918 Heinrich Steiner ?? )

Block 3 Grab 27 27.04.1918 Friedrich/Fritz Homuth

Block 3 Grab 28 ?

Block 3 Grab 29 28.04.1918 Hermann Pieper

Block 3 Grab 30 28.04.1918 Georg Gröner

Block 3 Grab 31 27.04.1918 Oskar Müller

Block 3 Grab 32 date 27.04.1918 is Heinrich Kahle

Block 3 Grab 33 ???

Block 3 Grab 34 date 29.04.1918 is Rudolf Ohde

Block 3 Grab 35 date 30.04.1918 is Wilhelm Schmidt

Block 3 Grab 36 ???

Block 3 Grab 37 date 30.04.1918 is Andreas Christian Sörensen

[ph0ebus]

The section of the Unit History for the period in which Heinrich was killed:

[AOK4]

As he was an officer, they may have buried his body a few days later after being relieved. So, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to have him among graves from a few days later.

[ph0ebus]

This is all uncharted territory for me...I am assuming my next step is to reach out to Volksbund?

[JWK]

Here's a very interesting link (from the link you posted earlier : http://access.cjh.org/home.php?type=extid&term=480487#1 )

http://digital.cjh.org//exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/L2V4bGlicmlzL2R0bC9kM18xL2FwYWNoZV9tZWRpYS8xOTc0Mzky.pdf

Heinrich's effects,schoolreports, etc. ( including the letters to him from his mother, returned to her with a stamp "Zuruck" and a written "Gefallen".... . )

In that PDF there's also a copy of the Kriegsstamrolle, with this remark :

Am 25.4.18 7e Vorm. (?) 1 km nordöstlich Villers-Bretonneux durch G G gefallen

Beerdigt am 29.4.18 9e Vorm.(?) auf dem Soldatenfriedhof in Bray-sur-Somme

Grab nr 216

If I read it correctly (apologies if I got it wrong! It's that "Vorm." = Vormittag = morning I'm not sure about)

he died at 7 in the morning on 25th april 1918, 1 km north-east of Villers-Bretonneux, through "G G" (Someone will know what that means)

and was buried at 9 in the morning on 29th april at Bray-sur-Somme, grave nr 216

JW

[Martin Feledziak]

This is a very difficult topic and I know we all want definite conclusive answers to exact locations of the soldiers "at Rest". Or at the very least the name of the cemetery.

In some cases there will not be a result we want, yet !

Speaking just for the two German cemeteries I have visited which are the last resting places for both Johann Feledziak , pioneer regt 29 at Servon Melzicourt, and Johann Feledziak, Fusilier Regt No37 at Consenvoye, They are marked on a metal cross which includes 3 other soldier names. I have pondered how the groups of soldiers came to be marked at these specific plots in the cemeteries.

I have concluded that they are just probable locations, roughly where they were originally sited. I feel confident that they are in the right cemeteries and roughly where they are marked now.

I would love to have an idea where Anton Feledziak is at rest when he was killed in 1917, I do not know his Regiment, but I do Know it is Russia, so that narrows it down a little.

Also as Roel indicated, I have seen a number of British soldiers marked on gravestones in local British churchyards when they are actually either buried in a foreign field or lost and noted on memorials.

It was something for the family. A place to visit.

But it is good to look and keep on researching. New tools arrive and the internet is an epic resource which just gets better.

** JWK just sneaked that one in above me. **

[ph0ebus]

Here's a very interesting link (from the link you posted earlier : http://access.cjh.org/home.php?type=extid&term=480487#1 )

http://digital.cjh.org//exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/L2V4bGlicmlzL2R0bC9kM18xL2FwYWNoZV9tZWRpYS8xOTc0Mzky.pdf

Heinrich's effects,schoolreports, etc. ( including the letters to him from his mother, returned to her with a stamp "Zuruck" and a written "Gefallen".... . )

In that PDF there's also a copy of the Kriegsstamrolle, with this remark :

steiner1.jpg

Am 25.4.18 7e Vorm. (?) 1 km nordöstlich Villers-Bretonneux durch G G gefallen

Beerdigt am 29.4.18 9e Vorm.(?) auf dem Soldatenfriedhof in Bray-sur-Somme

Grab nr 216

If I read it correctly (apologies if I got it wrong! It's that "Vorm." = Vormittag = morning I'm not sure about)

he died at 7 in the morning on 25th april 1918, 1 km north-east of Villers-Bretonneux, through "G G" (Someone will know what that means)

and was buried at 9 in the morning on 29th april at Bray-sur-Somme, grave nr 216

JW

This is a critical find. I assume they changed their numbering system at some point, so we may need to find out what grave 216 would be numbered as today in that cemetery.

I found this document:

http://www.znaci.net/00002/323.pdf

It gives a few possibilities for the meaning of G.G.

Graugussgeschoss - cast iron shell

Grundgeschlitz - base piece artillery

Of course, it may be something else entirely, but of the two, the first is the one I suspect it may be referring to.

[ph0ebus]

This additional snippet from his Kriegsstamrolle entry might be helpful, if we could read it...the dates correspond to when he died:

[JWK]

The easy part is

Schlacht bei Villers-Bretonneux 24-25.4.18

Battle of Villers-Bretonneux 24-25.4.18

but those words in the lower left hand corner elude me.

[ph0ebus]

Possibility is (La) Luce (river) at Avre?

[AliceF]

Hi,

In grave 33 Block 3 rests August Kroll

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-August-Kroll_Soldaten_0_590077.html

In grave 36 Block rests Georg Maleika

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Georg-Maleika_Soldaten_0_595087.html

(I put the whole database from Bray-sur-Somme at weltkriegsopfer.de into excel)

Yes, there were 2 different systems numbering the graves. It seems as if the Germans numbered their graves (at least at some cemeteries) with continuous numbers while the British (and French?) had the plot (block) and grave system, which was then used. This makes it sometimes difficult to trace graves, where one knows only the German number. But you have very good documentation. Of course it might be helpful to contact the Volksbund. There might have additional information. But isn't no 26 or 28 quite likely and the first option to explore further?

Jan, are there any grave report forms - as for Finns - for German cemeteries? But I guess you would have named it if there were.

Christine

[JWK]

Possibility is (La) Luce (river) at Avre?

An Luce u. Avre

On Luce and Avre , and indeed they're little streams running south of Villers-Bretonneux.

[AOK4]

Hi,

In grave 33 Block 3 rests August Kroll

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-August-Kroll_Soldaten_0_590077.html

In grave 36 Block rests Georg Maleika

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Georg-Maleika_Soldaten_0_595087.html

(I put the whole database from Bray-sur-Somme at weltkriegsopfer.de into excel)

Yes, there were 2 different systems numbering the graves. It seems as if the Germans numbered their graves (at least at some cemeteries) with continuous numbers while the British (and French?) had the plot (block) and grave system, which was then used. This makes it sometimes difficult to trace graves, where one knows only the German number. But you have very good documentation. Of course it might be helpful to contact the Volksbund. There might have additional information. But isn't no 26 or 28 quite likely and the first option to explore further?

Jan, are there any grave report forms - as for Finns - for German cemeteries? But I guess you would have named it if there were.

Christine

Hello,

Originally there were German and French (after 1918) lists for all of the German cemeteries. They should be in the archives of the Volksbund in Kassel. However, it's not always easy to get a copy or information there.

Jan

[AliceF]

Hi,

I extended your list a bit further, but only no 26 and 28 are missing in Block 3 at this time period.

Christine

Strutz Richard -- k.A. -- 24.04.1918 3 15 Dreehsen Heinrich -- k.A. -- 24.04.1918 3 16 Kühne Paul Friedrich -- k.A. -- 24.04.1918 3 17 Busack Georg -- k.A. -- 25.04.1918 3 18 Beuscher Friedrich -- k.A. -- 26.04.1918 3 19 Wentz Ludwig 20.09.1877 26.04.1918 3 20 Werner Johann -- k.A. -- 26.04.1918 3 21 Kiefer Johann -- k.A. -- 27.04.1918 3 22 Koring Karl -- k.A. -- 26.04.1918 3 23 Vehoff Bernhard -- k.A. -- 26.04.1918 3 24 Huge Heinrich -- k.A. -- 27.04.1918 3 25 Homuth Friedrich (Fritz) -- k.A. -- 27.04.1918 3 27 Pieper Hermann -- k.A. -- 28.04.1918 3 29 Gröner Georg -- k.A. -- 28.04.1918 3 30 Müller Oskar 16.02.1884 27.04.1918 3 31 Kahle Heinrich -- k.A. -- 27.04.1918 3 32 Kroll August -- k.A. -- 29.04.1918 3 33 Ohde Rudolf -- k.A. -- 29.04.1918 3 34 Schmidt Wilhelm -- k.A. -- 30.04.1918 3 35 Maleika Georg -- k.A. -- 30.04.1918 3 36 Sörensen Andreas Christian 11.08.1880 30.04.1918 3 37 Kruse Paul -- k.A. -- 30.04.1918 3 38 Hassepass Adolf -- k.A. -- 01.05.1918 3 39 Groschowsky Josef -- k.A. -- 01.05.1918 3 40 Müller Erich -- k.A. -- 30.04.1918 3 41 Gelb Karl -- k.A. -- 02.05.1918 3 42 Berkers Leonhard -- k.A. -- 01.05.1918 3 43 Reslowski Robert -- k.A. -- 02.05.1918 3 44 Hirsch Karl -- k.A. -- 02.05.1918 3 45 Bieber Jakob -- k.A. -- 03.05.1918 3 46 Kreckeler Fritz -- k.A. -- 03.05.1918 3 47 Mondrawski Johann -- k.A. -- 03.05.1918 3 48 Hunzinger Karl -- k.A. -- 02.05.1918 3 49 Bandulewitz Johann -- k.A. -- 02.05.1918 3 50 Weiner Heinrich -- k.A. -- 02.05.1918 3 51

[AliceF]

Sorry for bad lay out, pasted a table, but came out as text. The last 2 numbers after the date of death are block and grave number. C.

[ph0ebus]

Excellent, Alice!

So, it looks like the grave to the left of Friedrich Homuth and adjacent to Herman Pieper, which could be #26 or #28 (depending on which way the numbering goes) is still the best candidate.

At this point, I am looking for advice on how to best approach Volksbund with this...do I send them all the evidence and information in my initial email or do I make initial contact and then send them the Kriegstammrolle and photo later? I want to use the approach that is most likely to garner their interest and a response.

-Daniel

[AliceF]

Hi,

I am not sure what to recommend. My experience is that they really try to answer and do so quite quickly (within 1-2 weeks).

I assume that they look in their archives, and give you an answer based on what they find. I got all kinds of answers form the same person, all from there is nothing to do: all documentation burned up in Potsdam in 1945 to sending my copies of documents I could not find elsewhere. So I do not really know what to do is best. I would probably send the photo of the grave and also the info from the Kriegsstammrolle at once. But maybe anybody else has a better advice. In the case of Gustav Gehrt it seems I was not able to convince them with my assumptions afterwards - when they had already made up there mind that he was in Maissemy.

But in your case evidence is better since you have the photo and it is a German cemetery. Good luck!

Christine

P.S. This here I do not really understand, not sure if it helps: http://www.euro-t-guide.com/See_Coun/France/F_NW/F_See_Bray-sur-Somme_German_Cemetery_2-1.htm (sounds as if the only unidentified soldiers would be in this one mass grave – but I might have misunderstood).

[Martin Feledziak]

Christine

- you have become a GWF addict,

I knew you would..

[JWK]

P.S. This here I do not really understand, not sure if it helps: http://www.euro-t-guide.com/See_Coun/France/F_NW/F_See_Bray-sur-Somme_German_Cemetery_2-1.htm (sounds as if the only unidentified soldiers would be in this one mass grave – but I might have misunderstood).

Christine, it is indeed a little confusing:

There are 1119 soldiers buried there,

1076 in single graves (1073 named, 3 unknown)

43 in a communal grave (27 of which are unknown)

Also: http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/bray-sur-somme.htmlstates that the monument in the middle was erected in 1929, and carved on it are all the names of the soldiers in this cemetery.

If Heinrich's name is missing on the monument then that *could* indicate he wasn't buried there anymore in 1929 (his remains taken to Germany for a private burial? - but is that allowed in the Jewish faith?), or his name was lost. But why would his name be lost?

[AliceF]

But maybe he could be one of the 3 unknown (out fo the 1076 single graves) as well. Will be very interesting to hear what the Volksbund says. Christine

[AliceF]

Well, Plot 3 grave 28 seems to be more unlikely since I found W. Harlwig

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-W-Harlwig_Soldaten_0_589888.html

http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=eaa7cd0154a82bd079b73c549fab0011

The date of death 9.9.1916

same date as Robert Delwig

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Robert-Delwig_Soldaten_0_589726.html

http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=debea75a4dbf2eee81fdfb1e4f24fec1

in Plot 1 grave 28, first I thought it might be a typing mistake, but the Volksbund had the same information.

Harlwig and Delwig are really no common German names. Harlwig has no hit in the Verlustenliste and a Robert Delwig not either - and then the same date in 1916 and same grave number (but different plots) - this is really odd. Could they be soldiers that were moved here later?

Christine

[ph0ebus]

Hi Christine,

That is an interesting find...I am not sure what to make of it!

As far as the question of whether his remains were moved or not, while I don't know this for certain, I would strongly suspect that they were not moved. I have never heard of such a thing in regards to the remains of Jewish soldiers but would be happy to be proven wrong should there be a precedent for that. As to how his grave may have been 'lost', perhaps the original marker was lost before the handoff to the French and there was nothing in the records they had to suggest who it was? Or, maybe he was relocated. Hopefully Volksbund will be able to shed some light on this.

-Daniel

[AliceF]

And in Block 3 grave 26 I now found

Franz Losensky http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=4b13da168b5d5d5b50d942a6f55c0594

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Franz-Losensky_Soldaten_0_595065.html

Died 28.3.1918.

At least I have now a complete database on Bray sur Somme. In some individual graves there a two persons registered, some are double registered - in mass grave and individual – some grave references have no one registered (probably the soldiers named at the memorial plate). So it’s still a mystery.

Christine

[ph0ebus]

And in Block 3 grave 26 I now found

Franz Losensky http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=4b13da168b5d5d5b50d942a6f55c0594

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Franz-Losensky_Soldaten_0_595065.html

Died 28.3.1918.

At least I have now a complete database on Bray sur Somme. In some individual graves there a two persons registered, some are double registered - in mass grave and individual – some grave references have no one registered (probably the soldiers named at the memorial plate). So it’s still a mystery.

Christine

Hi Christine,

Great find, but it does throw a bit of a spanner into the works. I will proceed with the inquiry to Volksbund with the operating assumption being that Heinrich is still there until proven otherwise.

-Daniel