KathrynWhite Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 I have been researching the war memorial for North Nibley in Gloucestershire and have come across a problem with two of the names: G Capener (Royal Navy) and P Capener. On census records, I have found them to be brothers who were living in the workhouse in 1911, along with a brother Arthur, 3 sisters, and their father. If these are my men (they are the only Capeners in the village/ direct area) then they would be Gilbert, born approx. 1898 and Percy, born 1900. Arthur would have been born 1896. The problem is, I can't find any service records/ medal index cards for them. They are not listed on Lives of the First World War (which I know isn't exhaustive) and I can't find any direct information on CWGC or in digitised records. It seems odd for this to be the case with all three brothers (although I can't confirm if Arthur would have fought). The other problem is that P Capener is the only man on the memorial not to have his regiment next to his name. If he was born in 1900 this would have put him as underage for most of the war but as his name is on the memorial he must have been involved in some way. I'm guessing this was either underage join-up or just in the last year. I have tried searching for Ca?ner and Ca*ner as their unusual surnames could have led to misspellings in records. It seems likely to me that the brothers would have joined the war effort to be able to leave the workhouse: was this the case? Were their certain rules/ practices for those joining up from the workhouse? Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm running out of places to search for them! Kathryn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 DId Percy end up in Birmingham ? - A P Capener is on the Birmingham Employers Roll of Honour for William Neale & Sons Limited. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 8 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2015 DId Percy end up in Birmingham ? - A P Capener is on the Birmingham Employers Roll of Honour for William Neale & Sons Limited. Craig Hi Craig, my honest answer is I don't know if he did end up in Birmingham but it does appear to be a possibility. Don't know if it would be an odd jump from Gloucestershire workhouse to Birmingham employment, but it can't be discredited. In modern-day driving time, they would only be 1 or 1 1/2 hour drive apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 01 July 1916 - Cheltenham Chronicle At the last meeting of the Dursley Board Guardians, very nice references were members the death of Able Seaman Gilbert Capener, a young sailor, who went down on the ill-fated cruiser Hampshire. It, was mentioned! that he was the first of the numerous soldiers and sailors who spent their earlier years at Dursley under the mooter(?) and matron of the Workhouse to lay down his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 I think he served as Gilbert James (based on sister Fanny Edith Woods - nee Capener, living in Wednesbury) - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3036822/JAMES,%20GILBERTAnother article describes him as Gilbert James Capener. Also, 72091 Percy James, Devonshire Regiment, born Nibley, Gloucestershire, enlisted Wednesbury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arboskittler Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 01 July 1916 - Cheltenham Chronicle At the last meeting of the Dursley Board Guardians, very nice references were members the death of Able Seaman Gilbert Capener, a young sailor, who went down on the ill-fated cruiser Hampshire. It, was mentioned! that he was the first of the numerous soldiers and sailors who spent their earlier years at Dursley under the mooter(?) and matron of the Workhouse to lay down his life. This is also referenced in the Gloucester Journal 24 June 1916, but there doen't seem to be any mention of a Capener in the list of souls lost on the Hampshire? .http://www.hmshampshire.co.uk/ Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 8 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2015 I think he served as Gilbert James (based on sister Fanny Edith Woods - nee Capener, living in Wednesbury) - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3036822/JAMES,%20GILBERTAnother article describes him as Gilbert James Capener. Also, 72091 Percy James, Devonshire Regiment, born Nibley, Gloucestershire, enlisted Wednesbury. Thank you so much for finding that "IPT", those articles about Gilbert are very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 8 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2015 This is also referenced in the Gloucester Journal 24 June 1916, but there doen't seem to be any mention of a Capener in the list of souls lost on the Hampshire? .http://www.hmshampshire.co.uk/ Andy. Thank you Andy, I have found him on the HMS Hampshire website as Gilbert James. I am wondering if he used James as a surname to distance himself from his father, given the difficulties of his youth with the family ending up in the workhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 Also, 72091 Percy James, Devonshire Regiment, born Nibley, Gloucestershire, enlisted Wednesbury. Percy James' medal card shows that he was previously 6/38689 Leicestershire Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arboskittler Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 Thank you Andy, I have found him on the HMS Hampshire website as Gilbert James. I am wondering if he used James as a surname to distance himself from his father, given the difficulties of his youth with the family ending up in the workhouse. In that case, Ancestry has him listed as Gilbert James. His first ship was the Impregnable, last ship Hampshire. First service was 12 Feb 1915. His service number being J34703. Andy. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 8 June , 2015 Share Posted 8 June , 2015 Prisons were built to keep you in; workhouses were built to keep you out. If you were 'out' you were typically living on your own account and so were not a drain on the Poor Law funding. Leaving the 'house' was a simple affair - usually two hours notice would suffice (enough time for the workhouse master to enjoy his dinner or similar). When the master was ready he would arrange for the clothes you wore on entry to be retrieved from the stores and off you go...no longer a burden on the parochial authorities. Good luck! Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 8 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2015 Prisons were built to keep you in; workhouses were built to keep you out. If you were 'out' you were typically living on your own account and so were not a drain on the Poor Law funding. Leaving the 'house' was a simple affair - usually two hours notice would suffice (enough time for the workhouse master to enjoy his dinner or similar). When the master was ready he would arrange for the clothes you wore on entry to be retrieved from the stores and off you go...no longer a burden on the parochial authorities. Good luck! Bernard Thank you Bernard. Seems likely then that Gilbert would have joined the army to be able to afford to leave the workhouse (if he'd still been there in 1915). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnumbellum Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 01 July 1916 - Cheltenham Chronicle At the last meeting of the Dursley Board Guardians, very nice references were members the death of Able Seaman Gilbert Capener, a young sailor, who went down on the ill-fated cruiser Hampshire. It, was mentioned! that he was the first of the numerous soldiers and sailors who spent their earlier years at Dursley under the mooter(?) and matron of the Workhouse to lay down his life. As Bernard Lewis has ponted out, the joint heads of a Poor Law Union workhouse were the Master and Matron, normally a married couple. The Chronicle report clearly included a misprint. So far from a boy giving notice to the Master of an intention to join up, there was active pressure on boys to enlist in the Navy or Army, just as there was pressure on girls to go into (domestic) "service". Recruiting officers sometimes visited Workhouses for the purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 9 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2015 Also, 72091 Percy James, Devonshire Regiment, born Nibley, Gloucestershire, enlisted Wednesbury. Percy James' medal card shows that he was previously 6/38689 Leicestershire Regiment. Having looked into this Percy James, I don't think he's my man. He seems to have joined up far too early for a boy born in 1900 and I think he's from the village of Nibley, South Gloucestershire, not North Nibley. (the two villages aren't close to each other). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 9 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2015 I think he served as Gilbert James (based on sister Fanny Edith Woods - nee Capener, living in Wednesbury) - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3036822/JAMES,%20GILBERTAnother article describes him as Gilbert James Capener. Looking at the census records from when they were children, the family had a housekeeper called Jane James, so it looks like Gilbert adopted her surname. Their mother had died and she was with the family from before Percy was a year old (1901 census). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 The 'notice' requirement was essentially designed for the convenience of the workhouse officers. Usually the master wouldn't want to be inconvenienced by paupers nagging him at all hours to be allowed out at a moment's notice. A little time - two hours was deemed reasonable - was required for the pauper's clothing to be handed back, paperwork to be completed and maybe to allow the master to savour his post-dinner glass of porter It also reinforced who was in charge. I'm sure that certain paupers would have been shown the door on request as soon as possible if they were deemed troublesome. Similarly the chance to shift a few paupers to a new employment opportunity or, indeed, into the armed forces would probably see matters expedited and the exit gate thrown open sharply. The whole workhouse ethos was to keep people out so as to minimise the cost to the Poor Law authorities hence the unwelcoming conditions and diets. And a fairly easy exit route. Paupers who declined to wait and vaulted the low walls were often apprehended and brought before the magistrates to answer a charge of 'stealing the workhouse uniform' as leaving without permission was not an offence in its own right! Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 Having looked into this Percy James, I don't think he's my man. Ah, that's a shame. I liked the Wednesbury link too. Still, at least the sister may provide a midlands connection. From the snippets I can see, the Roll of Honour for William Neale & Sons Limited appears to show regiments. Do we know the regiment shown for P Capener? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 9 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2015 Ah, that's a shame. I liked the Wednesbury link too. Still, at least the sister may provide a midlands connection. From the snippets I can see, the Roll of Honour for William Neale & Sons Limited appears to show regiments. Do we know the regiment shown for P Capener? Unfortunately no mention of a regiment, he's the only name on the memorial without one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 So did workhouses tend to push lads towards the Navy, which they could join at a younger age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnumbellum Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 So did workhouses tend to push lads towards the Navy, which they could join at a younger age? Not necessarily as a general rule, but this may well have happened in this particular case, and because those who listed the names for carving were not sure how to deal with the Navy instead of regiment, they left it blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathrynWhite Posted 9 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2015 Not necessarily as a general rule, but this may well have happened in this particular case, and because those who listed the names for carving were not sure how to deal with the Navy instead of regiment, they left it blank Gilbert has RN denoting the Royal Navy, as do a couple of others. It's his brother Percy who doesn't have a regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 Fanny Edith Capener's husband has service papers on Ancestry. A real long shot, but there could be a clue in there somewhere, if Percy found his way to the Midlands - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=allgs&gss=sfs28_ms_f-2_s&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=fanny%20edith&gsfn_x=1&gsln=capener&gsln_x=1&MSAV=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&uidh=idw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnumbellum Posted 9 June , 2015 Share Posted 9 June , 2015 Gilbert has RN denoting the Royal Navy, as do a couple of others. It's his brother Percy who doesn't have a regiment. Sorry, I lost the the thread for the moment in this rather tangled web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arboskittler Posted 2 July , 2015 Share Posted 2 July , 2015 I have been researching the war memorial for North Nibley in Gloucestershire and have come across a problem with two of the names: G Capener (Royal Navy) and P Capener. On census records, I have found them to be brothers who were living in the workhouse in 1911, along with a brother Arthur, 3 sisters, and their father. If these are my men (they are the only Capeners in the village/ direct area) then they would be Gilbert, born approx. 1898 and Percy, born 1900. Arthur would have been born 1896. The problem is, I can't find any service records/ medal index cards for them. They are not listed on Lives of the First World War (which I know isn't exhaustive) and I can't find any direct information on CWGC or in digitised records. It seems odd for this to be the case with all three brothers (although I can't confirm if Arthur would have fought). The other problem is that P Capener is the only man on the memorial not to have his regiment next to his name. If he was born in 1900 this would have put him as underage for most of the war but as his name is on the memorial he must have been involved in some way. I'm guessing this was either underage join-up or just in the last year. I have tried searching for Ca?ner and Ca*ner as their unusual surnames could have led to misspellings in records. It seems likely to me that the brothers would have joined the war effort to be able to leave the workhouse: was this the case? Were their certain rules/ practices for those joining up from the workhouse? Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm running out of places to search for them! Kathryn Maybe a coincidence but there are medals for sale on that well known auction site for an Arthur Capener http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BWM-Victory-pair-Sentenced-to-Death-for-sleeping-on-post-Worcestershire-Reg-/121690439707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c5550c01b Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dink999 Posted 2 July , 2015 Share Posted 2 July , 2015 Gilbert is pictured in the Dursley Gazette dated 17 June 1916, it is not the best image but better than nothing. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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