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Simon_Fielding

Books on British Units in the Easter Rising 1916

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Simon_Fielding

Any suggestions? Wasn't there recently a book on the Sherwoods in the Rising?

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Dublin3

Paul O'Brien's Blood on the Streets is a good overview on the Sherwoods and Mount Street Bridge http://www.mercierpress.ie/irish-books/blood_on_the_streets/

The Book is one of a series by O'Brien who used to do tours of the batlesite and it shows. He quickly cuts through the politics and get straight to the action. His Books are very accessible reads, well researched, and he is one of the first writers I've come across to really look at the Sherwood Foresters during the Rising.

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mikebriggs

This is a newish book……...

THE 1916 DIARIES OF AN IRISH REBEL AND A BRITISH SOLDIER. Mercian Press 1st August 2014; ISBN: 9781781172445.

​You can also access a very good PhD thesis on the subject:-

“Hidden from Memory: Remembrance and Commemoration of the Sherwood Foresters’ Involvement in Easter, 1916″ by Amanda S Kinchen (2014). Electronic Theses & Dissertations.Paper 1066.

http://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2144&context=etd

cheers

Mike

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Simon_Fielding

Excellent suggestions thank you both

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jdoyle

For a general overview of British units, I'd go for

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Easter-Rising-1916-Republic-Campaign/dp/1846030676

Couple of links which may be of interest

https://derbyshireterritorials.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/2-6th-battalion-history.pdf

http://booksnow1.scholarsportal.info/ebooks/oca9/5/sherwoodforester00oate/sherwoodforester00oate.pdf

my basic write of the recent book re the Sherwoods

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-sherwood-foresters-in-easter-rising.html

There are a number of e-books/PDF etc on the web detailing various aspects of the Easter Rising

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/easter-rising-booklets.html

Paul O'Brien's books are good. Well worth a read.

Not focused on British units but I like the recently published When the Clock Struck in 1916

http://www.collinspress.ie/images/thumbnails/1/500/When_the_Clock_Struck_in_1916.jpg

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depaor01

Hi Simon,

The Sherwoods book is by Cliff Housley. Details here:

 

Dave.

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mikebriggs

Cliff's book is very much a review of what was published in the 2/Line Battalion Histories.

Good for bringing it all into 1 volume, but really nothing new if you have access to those histories.

I don't want to sound picky but I was hoping for something more when I bought it. Having said that it does have lists of casualties, which is new.

And there is some good info on the Forester's flying columns in the summer of 1916.

Touches briefly on the executions of the leaders, but again nothing substantial in fact rather superficial.

A visit to the National Archives would have helped bolster this section.

Sorry, this sounds like a book review ! :blush:

If you want a good all-round read about the Notts and Derby in Ireland 1916 (taken from accounts/manuscripts originally written in the 1920s) then Cliff's book is for you.

However, Paul O'Brien's books are EXCELLENT for the real detail of the actions - none better in my opinion :thumbsup:

cheers

Mike

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BRONNO

I agree with your comments, well pointed out Mike........ :thumbsup: BRONNO.

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wig

Another new book by Paul O'Brien just published looks at the final battle for the GPO: Battleground: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battleground-1916-Paul-OBrien/dp/1848404271/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1434894198&sr=8-8&keywords=paul+o%27brien

And you should also look at his book on the fighting in and around the fourcourts which has a detailed description of the role of the Staffordshire regt; Crossfire: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crossfire-Battle-Four-Courts-Focus-ebook/dp/B007WWN1KU/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1434894198&sr=8-13&keywords=paul+o%27brien

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Michael Pegum

​You can also access a very good PhD thesis on the subject:-

“Hidden from Memory: Remembrance and Commemoration of the Sherwood Foresters’ Involvement in Easter, 1916″ by Amanda S Kinchen (2014). Electronic Theses & Dissertations.Paper 1066.

http://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2144&context=etd

cheers

Mike

In fact, this is not a very good thesis. I have done some research on Frank Browning, who was killed in the first skirmish at, or near, Mount Street Bridge.

Ms Kinchen says the group first attacked by the rebels were "British soldiers already stationed in Dublin, particularly one group, the 'Gorgeous Rex' ". They were local, civilian, members of a Volunteer Training Corps. They wore arm-bands with G.R. on them, for Georgius Rex (King George). They were known as the Gorgeous Wrecks throughout the United Kingdom (which then included all of Ireland), not only in Dublin, on account of their age. To mix the real name with the nick-name, as she does twice, suggests a superficial study.

She goes on to say that "their rifles were empty from their training", as they had been on a training exercise that morning. In fact, they had no ammunition at any time, and their rifles were obsolete. Even the rebels would not steal them, according to James Connolly's daughter, Nora.

She says the rebels "picked them off one by one"; there were two vollies.

She says "the few who survived had made it back to the barracks"; four were killed, and nine wounded, out of about fifty.

If the rest of the thesis has a corresponding number of inaccurate statements, it is not reliable.

Michael

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jdoyle

a thesis that has the phrase "Eater Rising" can't be taken too seriously.

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Michael Pegum

a thesis that has the phrase "Eater Rising" can't be taken too seriously.

To be fair, only once! Anyone who has written for publication will find that it is very difficult to avoid all spelling mistakes (see Posts 2, 7 and 9 above).

Spell-chequers are not always the answer, and would not have picked up the 'Eater' mistake.

Michael

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jdoyle

you're right of course but it's on top of so many other errors/issues (but then again it is supposed to be a thesis that's been proof read and proof read and then proof read again.....)

This is a lovely bit of tripe :

"The Foresters found an old boiler from the Guinness Brewery and put it onto a lorry, making a rudimentary armored vehicle. Nineteen men climbed inside and the lorry was pushed"

or to use a mispelt word from the Housley book, it's "rhubard".

The thesis author has issues with geography/names

"Onamore in Galway"

"before being sent to Fovant in France in January to fight in World War I."

"the port of Kingstown (now Dún Laogihre)," (Housley has the port as Kingston)

Not alone in errors though - the episode of the Lewis series that has the Oxford Professor spouting on about the Rising and mentioning the German arms ship at the bottom of Howth harbour....

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mikebriggs

I think that you are being unnecessary mean here.

This is young lass that has put together a thesis from Georgia and with very little access to primary material - other than one visit to the UK/Ireland.

With regards to spelling mistakes - having personally examined in excess of 30 PhD Theses (and countless MScs) - they are not uncommon and "spell-checking" is not perfect!

This MA Thesis addresses an under researched area and that is the British attitude to the Easter Rising, and she does a good job on this.............

You guys need to see the bigger picture here and reflect on the fact that there is an interest in the Easter Rising in a History Department in a small University in Southern Georgia.

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Michael Pegum

I think that you are being unnecessary (unnecessarily?) mean here.

This is young lass that has put together a thesis from Georgia and with very little access to primary material - other than one visit to the UK/Ireland.

With regards to spelling mistakes - having personally examined in excess of 30 PhD Theses (and countless MScs) - they are not uncommon and "spell-checking" is not perfect!

This MA Thesis addresses an under researched area and that is the British attitude to the Easter Rising, and she does a good job on this.............

You guys need to see the bigger picture here and reflect on the fact that there is an interest in the Easter Rising in a History Department in a small University in Southern Georgia.

I criticised the content, not the spelling ("spell-chequers" was a joke to illustrate the point I was making).

Are you suggesting that, because she is young and female, inaccuracies should be ignored? Do you make similar allowances when checking other theses?

Georgia may be a long way from Ireland, but all of the books and journals she needed would have been available through the university library or the internet, and a few days in Dublin, and at Kew, would have let her see all the primary records she needed.

The bigger picture is that historical research should be based on facts. Getting the facts wrong means that any interpretation of events, and assessment of their significance, is useless.

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Muerrisch

A relaxed attitude to errors of spelling and grammar is the top of a slippery slope.

Further down the inclined plane one finds wrong dates, names and time_lines.

Finally one makes allowance for inexperience, gender,race, creed or handicap.

When nobody loses nobody wins.

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jdoyle

The text re the armoured car

"The Foresters found an old boiler from the Guinness Brewery and put it onto a lorry, making a rudimentary armored vehicle. Nineteen men climbed inside and the lorry was pushed"

is a rework of text from the publication by Gerald Edmunds. The thesis has somewhat changed the meaning by substituting pushed for rushed (typo?) and has attributed the construction of the armoured car to the Foresters which is not something suggested by Edmunds (or any other publication that I'm aware of). Edmunds also refers to Kingstown as Kingston in his work and is incorrect re the "boiler" coming from Guinness but it would be understandable why Edmunds would have thought this was the case.

There is a nice large scale model of one of the "boiler" armoured cars in the museum at the Curragh. The "boilers" for 3 improvised armoured vehicles were smoke boxes from the railway works at Inchicore. It was at this railway works that the smoke boxes were fitted to Milnes Daimler lorries from Guinness. Another 2 of the Guinness lorries were fitted with plates and formed box like armoured vehicles.

The thesis has a reference to the Foresters being transported aboard 2 "cargo" ships, the SS Munster and the SS Patriotic. The RMS Munster was a packet steamer and had brought Lord Wimborne to Ireland a year earlier as captured in this Pathe video clip. The SS Patriotic was used by Carson making an anti-home rule speech having signed the Ulster Covenant earlier in the day; it then transported him to Liverpool to make an anti-home rule speech there (Sheil Park). It had quite a few first class cabins available and there is a nice photo of the ships "smoke room" on the NLI website. Not a bad facility for a "cargo" ship.

post-65053-0-54404200-1435811895_thumb.p

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depaor01

I think this is the one jdoyle - interesting to hear any views on the uniforms being worn.

Incidentally there were only four rifle loops cut out of each side. The rest were painted on "holes" designed to frustrate snipers.

post-42233-0-99056200-1435828583_thumb.j

Dave

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mikebriggs

Don't forget page 44 "The 2/6th Division was also sent……….."

Well that's a unit that never existed - yet ANOTHER mistake - it's like picking bones out of spit…...

Cargo vs. Packet steamer

Pushed vs. rushed

These are minor errors and they will certainly not change the fabric of history - or more importantly the CONCLUSIONS of the Thesis.

I have to say I am at a total lose to understand why you are sticking the boot in over some minor errors.

Why don't you read beyond the minor mistakes and appreciate the fact that someone has gone to a lot of trouble to research an area that has never been addressed before.

I just think that its GREAT someone has taken the time to produce this written work (minor errors included)

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mikebriggs

interesting to hear any views on the uniforms being worn.

"B" Company 2/6th Battalion Sherwood Foresters were in the "armoured cars" from 5pm on the 27th April - but that's not them in the photo - uniforms (shoulder badges) don't look right to me

but hey I could be wrong ;)

although I have to say the guy sitting down looks an awful lot like like 306 Pioneer Sergeant John Beard of the 2/6th Battn

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mikebriggs

Are you suggesting that, because she is young and female, inaccuracies should be ignored? Do you make similar allowances when checking other theses?

I don't think we'll go there - it's off topic (and bang out of order!)

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Airshipped

Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of some details of the student's doctoral research, and hopefully getting the thread back on topic, here's another work on the Sherwood Foresters in which Easter 1916 is touched upon:

https://archive.org/details/sherwoodforester00oate

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jdoyle

I think this is the one jdoyle - interesting to hear any views on the uniforms being worn.

Incidentally there were only four rifle loops cut out of each side. The rest were painted on "holes" designed to frustrate snipers.

attachicon.gifboiler3.jpg

Dave

One of 3 produced in this style. My gran and her sister got to ride in one of these after the surrender. Their father was in France at the time of the Rising having left Guinness when he enlisted. It's one of the reasons I'm interested in the Easter Rising

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/guinness-lorries-ww1-and-tan-war.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/guinness-drivers.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/henry-hugh-peter-deasy.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/colonel-allat.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/colonel-portal.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/improvised-armoured-cars-dublin-1916.html

Joseph Cashman got a number of photos of these vehicles and Norman Whitten/Gordon Lewis captured one on film

The following 1926 article has a photo of the other type of armoured vehicle produced (as well as a bit about the Sherwoods)

http://antoglach.militaryarchives.ie/PDF/1926_04_10_Vol_4_No13_An%20t-Oglac-13.pdf

It's in a series of 3 related articles that forms part of a larger series re the Rising

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/an-t-oglach-easter-rising-series-of.html

post-65053-0-63732600-1436740624_thumb.j

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