Officers: Family Regiments and Battalions

[Guest]

It is no secret that many regiments and battalions were family affairs with generations of young men following the footsteps of their forbears. The Great War clearly provided an opportunity for men to serve, literally, as brothers in arms. I recently stumbled on four members of the same family serving in the same battalion. The 6th Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regt in 1915 included:

Capt Neville Swire Mann

Capt Horatio Gordon Mann

Lt Horace Walpole Mann

Lt R Mann

13% of the Officers from one family. Three brothers died; Horatio and Horace on the same day at Gallipoli and Neville eight months later in Mesopotamia. Neville was the adjutant at Gallipoli when his brothers were killed only five days after landing. It is difficult to imagine what was going through his mind. I am not sure if the fourth was a brother or a cousin. I am curious if there are other examples of high concentrations of Officers from the same families in single battalions or regiments.

To avoid confusion, I am aware of the 'brothers died' thread. My interest is only in Officers rather than Other Ranks, and their service together regardless of whether they died. Clearly tyere will be hundreds of examples of two or three brothers. I am interested in seeing how many families had four or more members serving s Officers in the same unit.

MG

[IRC Kevin]

1/5th King's Own Royal Lancaster, Major John Henry Bates (Battalion 2 i/c) and his son, Lt Stanley Knight Bates, killed aged 17 on the Frezenberg Ridge on 9 May 1915. At the time he was the youngest full Lieutenant in the Army.

[Ron Clifton]

The Officer Commanding Coldstream Guards in August 1914 was a Colonel C S O Monck.

Ron

[Guest]

The Officer Commanding Coldstream Guards in August 1914 was a Colonel C S O Monck.

Ron

???

[Terry_Reeves]

Colonel George Monck founded the regiment in 1650.

TR

[Guest]

The thread is about Officers from the same family serving together in the Great war. Please. MG

[rolt968]

I can't quite get to four family members, but when 1/5 Black Watch went to France in November 1914:

Second in Command: Major Lord Glamis
Adjutant: Captain Hon G F Bowes-Lyon
In No 1 Company: Lieutenant Hon J H Bowes-Lyon

RM

[Terry_Reeves]

The thread is about Officers from the same family serving together in the Great war. Please. MG

Try and see if there are other Moncks of the same lineage in the regiment in WW1. Ron's post could lead to an interesting story and I suspect that is why he posted it.

TR

[Guest]

I can't quite get to four family members, but when 1/5 Black Watch went to France in November 1914:

Second in Command: Major Lord Glamis

Adjutant: Captain Hon G F Bowes-Lyon

In No 1 Company: Lieutenant Hon J H Bowes-Lyon

RM

Many thanks.Just the job. I see there are two other Bowes Lyons in the Army List May 1915.

[Guest]

The Territorials might seem to be a rich source:

1/5th Norfolks:

Capt F R Beck MVO

Lt A E A Beck

Lt A E Beck

2 Lt A Beck

Capt E R Cubitt

2 Lt R G Cubitt

2 Lt V M Cubitt

2 Lt E H Cubitt

1/4th Suffolks had

Maj F W Turner

Lt H K Turner

Lt M A Turner

[Gareth Davies]

I will be very interested in your results Martin. For example, will you find a greater number of brothers serving as officers together in say the Yeomanry than in the Infantry? Will county Regiments have greater numbers than say Ft Gds? I am going to hazard a guess that there were no Bns with more than 3 brothers as officers in 1914 and those with that many will be few and far between.

The Territorials might seem to be a rich source:

1/5th Norfolks:

Capt F R Beck MVO

Lt A E A Beck

Lt A E Beck

2 Lt A Beck

Capt E R Cubitt

2 Lt R G Cubitt

2 Lt V M Cubitt

2 Lt E H Cubitt

1/4th Suffolks had

Maj F W Turner

Lt H K Turner

Lt M A Turner

What year is this data from?

[Steven Broomfield]

The King family was well-represented in the 7th Middlesex, I believe, and IIRC the 1/6th Glosters had their CO killed in 1917 near Peronne, at least one other officer (Adjutant) also killed being his brother.

As you know, the brother of the historian of the 11th Hussars was killed serving with the regiment, too.

Regarding Monck, he (or another Monck) is buried at Perth (China Wall) Cemetery.

The grandfather of the current Regimental Secretary of the KRH served with the 14th Hussars (a predecessor regiment) in Mespot.

[Guest]

I will be very interested in your results Martin. For example, will you find a greater number of brothers serving as officers together in say the Yeomanry than in the Infantry? Will county Regiments have greater numbers than say Ft Gds? I am going to hazard a guess that there were no Bns with more than 3 brothers as officers in 1914 and those with that many will be few and far between.

What year is this data from?

I am not sure what to expect. I recall over the years from transcribing dairies and Officer rolls seeing scores of units with at least two men from the same families. Quite common. Three less so and four is rather rare. My experience is with the Regulars of 1914, TF of 1914-15 and New Army units of 1915. I have no idea what the locally raised units might yield.

Data is from the Army List May 1915, which basically captures the initial expansion and caprures names of men, especially in the TF and New Army battalions before the great slaughter of 1915 really got underway - there was a marked lag effect from becoming a fatality to being removed from the list. It is a particularly interesting volume as it includes most of the men who fought and died at second Ypres, Gallipoli and Loos where casualty rates were highly concentrated. The May 1915 list for example shows 27 battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers for example.

Cavalry and Yeomanry 1914 Star medal Roll yields 26 families with at least two members seeing active service together.

Of particular interest:

North Somerset Yeomanry

Maj A H Gibbs

Capt E L Gibbs

Lt G M Gibbs

2 Lt L C Gibbs

2 Lt R C B Gibbs

Northumberland Hussars

Capt Hon J N Ridley

2 Lt C N Ridley

2 Lt A H Ridley

Lt H Drummond

2 Lt H Drummond

First Life Guards (one killed two wounded incidentally)

Capt Hone E S Wyndham

Capt Hon E H Wyndham

Lt Hon W R Wyndham

9th Lancers - five sets of brothers/relations

Grenfell (2)

Harvey (2)

Taylor Whitehead (2)

Reynolds (2)

Norman (2)

10th Royal Hussars - three sets of brothers/relations

Armstrong (2)

de Tuyll (2)

Peto (2)

2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) - three sets of brothers/relations

Hall (2)

Hardy (2)

Pawson (2)

Royal Horse Guards

Wilson (2)

Greves (2)

The following regular cavalry Regiments all had brothers/relations serving together

1 LG

2 LG

RHG

5 DG

6DG

2 D

3 H

4 H

5 L

8 KRIH

9 L

10 RH

11 H

16 L

18 H

Four of the Yeomanry Regiments that qualified for the 1914 Star had brothers/relations serving together

North Somerset

Northamptonshire

Leicetsershire

Northumberland Hussars

[Guest]

Infantry 1914 STar medal rolls reveals 11 regiments with at least three members of the same family or clan. Leaving the Scots and welsh common names aside there are

3 Harringtons in the West Yorkshire Regiment. Not all in the same regular battalion

3 Burys in the 1/4th Bn RWF (and unsurprisingly 4 Davies)

3 Parkers in the Northamptonshire Regt. Not all in the same regular battalion

Foot Guards:

GG -six pairs of family members

CG -five pairs of family members

SG -three pairs of family members

IG - one pairs of family members and one grouping of 3: Fitzgerald.

[Gareth Davies]

I am not sure what to expect. I recall over the years from transcribing dairies and Officer rolls seeing scores of units with at least two men from the same families. Quite common. Three less so and four is rather rare. My experience is with the Regulars of 1914, TF of 1914-15 and New Army units of 1915. I have no idea what the locally raised units might yield.

Data is from the Army List May 1915, which basically captures the initial expansion and caprures names of men, especially in the TF and New Army battalions before the great slaughter of 1915 really got underway - there was a marked lag effect from becoming a fatality to being removed from the list. It is a particularly interesting volume as it includes most of the men who fought and died at second Ypres, Gallipoli and Loos where casualty rates were highly concentrated. The May 1915 list for example shows 27 battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers for example.

Cavalry and Yeomanry 1914 Star medal Roll yields 26 families with at least two members seeing active service together.

Of particular interest:

North Somerset Yeomanry

Maj A H Gibbs

Capt E L Gibbs

Lt G M Gibbs

2 Lt L C Gibbs

2 Lt R C B Gibbs

Northumberland Hussars

Capt Hon J N Ridley

2 Lt C N Ridley

2 Lt A H Ridley

Lt H Drummond

2 Lt H Drummond

First Life Guards (one killed two wounded incidentally)

Capt Hone E S Wyndham

Capt Hon E H Wyndham

Lt Hon W R Wyndham

9th Lancers - five sets of brothers/relations

Grenfell (2)

Harvey (2)

Taylor Whitehead (2)

Reynolds (2)

Norman (2)

10th Royal Hussars - three sets of brothers/relations

Armstrong (2)

de Tuyll (2)

Peto (2)

2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) - three sets of brothers/relations

Hall (2)

Hardy (2)

Pawson (2)

Royal Horse Guards

Wilson (2)

Greves (2)

The following regular cavalry Regiments all had brothers/relations serving together

1 LG

2 LG

RHG

5 DG

6DG

2 D

3 H

4 H

5 L

8 KRIH

9 L

10 RH

11 H

16 L

18 H

Four of the Yeomanry Regiments that qualified for the 1914 Star had brothers/relations serving together

North Somerset

Northamptonshire

Leicetsershire

Northumberland Hussars

The NSY Gibbs were the Tyntesfield Gibbs I believe.

[Coldstreamer]

The Officer Commanding Coldstream Guards in August 1914 was a Colonel C S O Monck.

Ron

2 officers called Monck serving in the coldstream guards in ww1

I do not know if brothers or related but not a common name - the other was the Hon CHS Monck

Try and see if there are other Moncks of the same lineage in the regiment in WW1. Ron's post could lead to an interesting story and I suspect that is why he posted it.

TR

as above

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Slightly off topic but Monck family connection with CG goes back several centuries. When Regiment originally raised in 1650 they were called Monck's Regiment after their first Colonel.

Steve Y

[Guest]

The unfortunate 6th (Service) Bn Royal Irish Rifles (K1) 29th Inf Bde, 10th (Irish) Div had the following family members:

Capt J F Martyr - KIA 11th Aug at ANZAC

2 Lt H Martyr - originally with HAC and was an Old Contemptible. Commissioned into RI Rifles.

2 Lt J G de G Martyr

One of the 2 Lts was WIA 13th Aug at ANZAC.

[bierast]

As commander of Saxon Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 245 (54.RD / XXVII.RK), Oberstleutnant Alfred von Heygendorff had his son Leutnant Egon von Heygendorff serving on his staff as regimental orderly officer in 1916. This may have been a bit irregular, but the elder von Heygendorff was a highly decorated officer who (by all surviving accounts) was revered by his men and greatly respected even by the Württemberg elements of the division, despite their sometimes fraught relationship with the Saxons. For instance he was chosen to command a composite regiment assembled by the division from elements of RIR 245, 246 and 247 (the latter two being Württemberg units) to participate in the storming of the northeastern tip of the British salient (s'Gravenstafel and thereabouts) during the Second Battle of Ypres.

Ltn. von Heygendorff was severely wounded at Rancourt (Somme) on 9th September 1916, when the regimental HQ cellar was badly shelled. He died the next day in hospital at Manancourt. Tragically his father too was killed on 12th September, when a heavy shell penetrated the roof of the new (relocated) HQ and buried the entire staff. Oberstltn. von Heygendorff had just sent his last letter to his wife, in which he broke the news of Egon's death. Mercifully their other son Ralph (also a Saxon officer) survived the war.

Treue um Treue - Providentiae Memor

[Guest]

6th (Reserve) Bn Middlesex Regt

Maj R F C King

2 Lt J V King

1/7th Bn Middlesex Regt (TF) ... three brothers and three cousins

Lt Col E J King

Maj L R King

Maj S King

Lt H K King

2 Lt R M E King

2 Lt G A King

3/7th Bn Middlesex Regt

Capt J H King

[Guest]

1/5th Bn (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Royal Scots (TF)

2 Lt W R Hislop

2 Lt F D Hislop

2 Lt R M Hislop

[charlie962]

I see there are 5 Kennedys in your photo of the RSF under the BEF Photos thread. Are they related?

[Blackblue]

48th Battalion AIF. Unsure of the exact number....but quite a clever nickname.

The 48th Battalion was raised in Egypt on 16 March 1916 as part of the "doubling" of the AIF. Roughly half of its new recruits were Gallipoli veterans from the 16th Battalion, and the other half, fresh reinforcements from Australia. Reflecting the composition of the 16th, the men of the new battalion hailed mainly from regional South Australia and Western Australia. The new battalion formed part of the 12th Brigade of the 4th Australian Division. It became known as the "Joan of Arc" (the Maid of Orleans) battalion because it was "made of all Leanes" - it was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Ray Leane, his brother was the adjutant, and several other relatives were scattered throughout the battalion.

https://www.awm.gov.au/unit/U51488/

https://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/fiftyaustralians/30.asp

Rgds

Tim D

[Nick1914]

Martin, this might be of interest to you. "The Fighting Travers" -see Bond of Sacrifice page 403. Amazing numbers of same family officers in the Rifle Brigade. Six brothers had 24 sons all of whom went into the army! Captain Hugh Mortimer Travers DSO kia with Royal Munster Fusiliers on 8th Nov 1914.

I haven't followed up on other family members but may be a rich source perhaps?

Nick

[MBrockway]

Three Woodroffe brothers served in the RB. All among the Fallen.

Leslie, Sidney and Kenneth.

Leslie and Sidney in 8/RB. Kenneth in 6/RB attached to 2/Welsh.

Sidney Woodroffe awarded the VC.