Henry Joseph Richards, 4th Welsh, Bandsman

[dennisrichards49]

Hi

Attached is a photo of Henry Joseph RICHARDS. On 1 April 1908, he enlisted with the 4^th Battalion Welsh (Territorial) Regiment (Regt No. 3159) two weeks ahead of his two older brothers (David and Ben). He would have undertaken part-time training, attended annual summer camps and, like his brothers, was a participant in the 4^th Welsh Regimental Band. At the outbreak of World War 1, Joe, with his brothers, would have moved with their battalion around the British Isles in preparation for overseas duties. However, unlike his brothers, Henry Joseph RICHARDS never left the UK. In fact, he was discharged on 15 March 1915 under King’s Regulations (Para 392 xvi KR A.O. 265/17 para Bi)) as "no longer physically fit for war" and awarded the Silver War Badge. When he was discharged he had achieved the rank of Corporal and would probably have then been posted with the 4^th Welsh to the Forth and Tay defences in Scotland. He died on 31 January 1929 at the age of 41 years. The cause of his death was valvular heart disease and this was probably the condition that led to his medical discharge from the army many years previously.

The question is what is that above his corporal stripes?

Regards

Dennis

[FROGSMILE]

It is the old pattern of bandsman's badge, (comprising crossed trumpets superimposed with a lyre all surmounted by a crown) replaced some time after 1908, I think, with the rather more plain crowned lyre.

It was produced in scarlet white and blue worsted thread for full dress, and khaki, brown and white for service dress (the latter after 1902).

[dennisrichards49]

It is the old pattern of bandsman's badge,

Thanks

I understand the ceremonial function but what about the military one?

So is bandsman a role or a rank?

Are bandsmen regular infantry soldiers as well?

On the battlefield what do they do?

Regards

Dennis

PS That observation for brother Ben about criss-cross on his Sergeant Drummer stripes . I didn't get it. I couldn't see any criss-crosses

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks

I understand the ceremonial function but what about the military one?

So is bandsman a role or a rank?

Are bandsmen regular infantry soldiers as well?

On the battlefield what do they do?

Regards

Dennis

PS That observation for brother Ben about criss-cross on his Sergeant Drummer stripes . I didn't get it. I couldn't see any criss-crosses

Bandsmen, unlike drummers, were not trained as soldiers to fight and 'Bandsman' was their rank, although I am unsure when that was introduced. They played music in peacetime and were regularly hired out to play at events. Seaside and town park bandstands were a common gig. They charged for this and the money was divided between the bandsmen (using a shares system according to rank and musical qualification) and the officers' band fund (that maintained the instruments as not all were war office supplied). In between musical gigs and regular band practice they trained in first-aid, as basic medical orderlies, and stretcher bearers. In wartime they deployed under the Regimental Medical Officer (RMO) to the regimental aid post (RAP) and were responsible for carrying wounded from the RAP to the Field Dressing Station. The Bandmaster of regular battalions would usually remain at the regimental depot to train the boy and recruit bandsmen.

It's hard to imagine now but the band was each battalions own mobile jukebox. They played on the march, taking turns (so they could rest) with the corps of drums and were often carried ahead to sound a stirring march as the battalion marched in to a waylay point for a meal, or into barracks at the end. In the evenings they would form quintets and other groupings for officers mess dinner functions. They were important for morale at a time when society made its own music, before the days of TV and when radios were the size of a house. They are now gone and battalions no longer have their own band, just a corps of drums, or in the case of Scots regiments, drums and pipes.

The normal stripes consisted of worsted tape on a serge background and the tape comprised mini chevrons in a continous strip. There was an alternative and less often seen pattern that instead comprised woven crosses.

[dennisrichards49]

Ok.

So going back to the previous thread that you participated in: Sgt Drummer Ben Richards and his brother Lance Corporal David Richards who were both at Gallipoli in Aug 1915 then Palestine then home by May 1916 were more than likely stretcher bearers in the field; there being little to no opportunity for parading/marching. Is that right?

[FROGSMILE]

Ok.

So going back to the previous thread that you participated in: Sgt Drummer Ben Richards and his brother Lance Corporal David Richards who were both at Gallipoli in Aug 1915 then Palestine then home by May 1916 were more than likely stretcher bearers in the field; there being little to no opportunity for parading/marching. Is that right?

Yes, the normal situation for bandsmen, but not drummers, would have been for them to be employed as stretcher bearers and general assistants to the RMO.

[Muerrisch]

I don't see a Sgt Drummer as a stretcher bearer or an assistant to the RMO ........ if the drums were not paraded, he would most likely be with the rifle companies, being a substantive sergeant, combat trained.

Thats a cracking good family photo archive!

[FROGSMILE]

I don't see a Sgt Drummer as a stretcher bearer or an assistant to the RMO ........ if the drums were not paraded, he would most likely be with the rifle companies, being a substantive sergeant, combat trained.

Thats a cracking good family photo archive!

Yes Grumpy and you know that I know that, don't you? The man in the opening post of this thread is a Band Cpl, who apparently then became a Band Sergeant and who is the subject of this thread. I am / was assuming therefore that this is who the OP was talking about and that his mention of drummer was confused with the other relative.

I have made it clear within the two threads on this family, the difference between a bandsman and a drummer, including a Sergeant Drummer. Indeed I mention it in the opening paragraph of my post above.

To repeat for the OP, drummers were soldiers and trained as such, bandsmen were not trained as soldiers, but were instead trained as stretcher bearers and as aides to the RMO.

Ergo, your forebears who were bandsmen would have been employed in that manner, and your forebear who was a 'Sergeant Drummer' would have been employed as a soldier when in the trenches.

[Muerrisch]

Yes Frogsmile I knew that you knew, my comment was made for the OP and posterity.

Whilst reading this thread I recalled that soldiers employed as bandsmen were required to shoot the Recruits' Musketry Course and then the Annual Classification thereafter. They were even eligible for the marksman badge and their best shot wore the "Best Shot in Band or Company" badge. One assumes this training was as self-defence against FuzzyWuzzies, much as RAMC doctors carrying a pistol. This is not to say that they were trained infantrymen once their Recruits Course faded into the past, to be replaced by semi-quavers and flams.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes Frogsmile I knew that you knew, my comment was made for the OP and posterity.

Whilst reading this thread I recalled that soldiers employed as bandsmen were required to shoot the Recruits' Musketry Course and then the Annual Classification thereafter. They were even eligible for the marksman badge and their best shot wore the "Best Shot in Band or Company" badge. One assumes this training was as self-defence against FuzzyWuzzies, much as RAMC doctors carrying a pistol. This is not to say that they were trained infantrymen once their Recruits Course faded into the past, to be replaced by semi-quavers and flams.

Yes I am surmising that it was probably after the musketry changes brought about by the 2nd Boer War that they were encouraged to shoot, but I will need to check the badge details in your book.

[Muerrisch]

I have later data: a badge was prescribed for band best shot at least as early as CR 1894, although not the same crossed rifles and star, but gold bullion crossed rifles.

[FROGSMILE]

I have later data: a badge was prescribed for band best shot at least as early as CR 1894, although not the same crossed rifles and

star, but gold bullion crossed rifles.

It is interesting to know a badge was available as early as that.

Also it is important to note that their recruit training was much curtailed in comparison with the standard infantry recruit and confined largely to drill and general military routine.

[dennisrichards49]

Thanks guys. By mixing up the 2 threads I seem to have caused confusion, sorry about that.

I'm pretty straight on everything I have learned from you all.

Needless to say I have one last question concerning when a soldier is promoted from a bandsman to a lance corporal (say)? Do they receive infantry training to get the stripe?

David Richards (pictured 2nd from left in the photo of 4 ) was a Lance Corporal and had a band motif above his stripe? From his personal war diary he refers to stretcher bearing whilst in Gallipoli. Incidentally David Richards was later promoted to Corporal.

Remember the guy on the left is Ben Richards , the Sergeant drummer, so I'm clear he had infantry training.

Regards

Dennis

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks guys. By mixing up the 2 threads I seem to have caused confusion, sorry about that.

I'm pretty straight on everything I have learned from you all.

Needless to say I have one last question concerning when a soldier is promoted from a bandsman to a lance corporal (say)? Do they receive infantry training to get the stripe?

David Richards (pictured 2nd from left in the photo of 4 ) was a Lance Corporal and had a band motif above his stripe? From his personal war diary he refers to stretcher bearing whilst in Gallipoli. Incidentally David Richards was later promoted to Corporal.

Remember the guy on the left is Ben Richards , the Sergeant drummer, so I'm clear he had infantry training.

Regards

Dennis

The bandsman's proficiency badge was for competence in music. There was no centralised training for infantry during that period and travel was expensive in time, so each regiment ran training either, at the depot, or within the battalion lines. He would have been competing with others in the band for promotion and not competing with those men in the rifle companies. As such then he could be appointed to Lance Corporal, which was an unpaid appointment and not a substantive rank, without any special, formal training. He would just have to show that he was smart, trustworthy, reliable and had some initiative.