richardgreen1908 Posted 19 May , 2015 Share Posted 19 May , 2015 I am trying to pin down when a draft of men from 2/9th Middx regiment arrived in France and were transferred to the 13th ESR. There were about 50 men numbering from about 28625 to 28675, all from the Middlesex Regiment training battalion, and I wondered whether the re-numbering gives an idea of when they joined the regiment in France. Unfortunately not a single service record remains for these men, and I cant find anything in the war diary for 13th ESR that mentions reinforcements in 1917. The only indication I have is that the first of this group to die fell at Bourlon Wood on 25th/26th November, but I assume that their arrival was somewhat earlier than November. I note from an earlier thread that a group of ESR men destined for 13th ESR was instead sent to the Kings Liverpool Regiment in mid Sept 1917, so the whole business of assigning drafts was obviously very hand to mouth at this time. My interest is that my Great Uncle, William George Green, was part of this group and I am trying to better understand his involvement with the 13th Btn up to his death in 1918. regards Richard Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 22 May , 2015 Share Posted 22 May , 2015 Hello Richard, I think the LLT website says that the 2/9th Middlesex never made it overseas, and that just made me wonder why they would feature in the medal roll? I thought the rolls were only for overseas service. I suppose a draft of 2/9th men could have arrived in France at a Depot to await transfer to another Rgt, but I didnt think that would qualify for a mention. Also, I had a little look at numbers in the Service Records, and the following may be of help: 28013 Transf to ESR 1.9.16 28060 Transf 1.9.16 28420 Transf 20.9.16 28490 Transf 16.9.16 28619 (close) Attested ESR July 16 29784 Attst 3.7.16 I realise that the later numbers appear to have joined the ESR before the earlier ones. This could be a mistake on my part- confusing L and GS prefixes perhaps, or it could be something to do with the difference between a transfer and an attestation (I have definitely seen this in the London Regiment!). Perhaps my input raises more questions than it helps to solve, but I just thought id have a little think about it. Perhaps someone more expert than myself may be able to clarify some points. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 22 May , 2015 Share Posted 22 May , 2015 <snip> There were about 50 men numbering from about 28625 to 28675, <snip> regards Richard Green Richard, I have the 13th East Surrey War Diary. I'm not clear on which Regiment you mean with the number range you quote "28625 to 28675". But using those numbers, and assuming the 13th East Surreys, the only soldier mentioned by name in November, 1917, is Pte 28639 HEMSTOCK. His is shown as the 'runner' in a message dated 25/11/17 (see attached). Other than that the CWGC list shows 9 men in that '286xx' number range: 28619 Pte Joseph ASPEY, KIA 26/11/17 28627 Pte Albert BUNCE, KIA 26/11/17 28635 Pte Arthur GREEN, KIA 26/11/17 28642 Pte Albert MARSDEN, KIA 26/11/17 28647 Pte John PARKINSON, KIA 25/11/17 28668 Pte Gilbert CUFFLIN, KIA 26/11/17 28671 Pte Harry FOX, KIA 26/11/17 28678 Pte Samson HARRISON, KIA 26/11/17 28691 Pte John NICHOLSON, KIA 26/11/17 Kindest Regards, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 22 May , 2015 Admin Share Posted 22 May , 2015 One service record has survived Pte 28640 John Samuel Hughes 2/9th Middx 4740 Embarked Folkestone 19/9/17 Disembarked Boulogne 19/9/1917 Transferred to East Surrey and posted to 13th Bn on 22-9-1917 AO 204 and ACI 1499 1916 New No 28640 Posted Missing 26/11/1917 then wounded and repatriated to England. Unfortunately war diary does not list drafts but they were in Brigade reserve on the 22nd which is when they would receive drafts. It's not unusual for the former Regt to be shown on the Rolls although they were taken off strength when posted overseas. They qualified for the medal when entering theatre and they couldn't be shown IBD. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardgreen1908 Posted 22 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2015 Ken thanks very much for that. I must have missed that number as I slogged through trying to find any service records at all amongst that group. My Great Uncle has 4770 and then 266502 with the 2/9th Middx and then 28673 with 13th ESR, so these timings fit for him. I did wonder how much experience this group got before the events at Bourlon Wood in November, so it appears to be just a couple of months. Tom - the note is interesting. What was the source? regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 22 May , 2015 Share Posted 22 May , 2015 That's interesting, men tranfering TO the 13th ESR, because one of my relatives arrived in France on 15 Sept 1917 with 13 ESR but within days was transferred to 4th Bedfordshire Regt. When I looked at the medal rolls it showed over 100 men moving from 13 ESR to 4th Beds. I haven't got all the facts in front of me as I'm on the road at the moment but if you search for medal rolls and service record for 43495 William Bramble you'll get the details. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardgreen1908 Posted 23 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2015 Alan the earlier thread I referred to in my original post shows that this was obviously a common occurence at the time and the same happened to others intended for the ESR. I assume that as they were in trenches in the Villiers Plouch area until they were relieved on 19th Sep the intended reinforcements could not be sent to them and were sent wherever the need was more pressing I am afraid I am not yet clever enough to link to the previous thread in Sep 2009 posted by Ken Lees but here is a copy "Can anyone tell me where the 13th Battalion, East Surrey Regt. were in mid-September, 1917 please?A reinforcement draft intended for the battalion was deviated on arrival in France and sent to the 9th King's Liverpools instead. I'm just wondering what the 13th East Surreys were doing or had been doing around that time. Thanks in advance, Ken" regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 23 May , 2015 Share Posted 23 May , 2015 Ken thanks very much for that. I must have missed that number as I slogged through trying to find any service records at all amongst that group. My Great Uncle has 4770 and then 266502 with the 2/9th Middx and then 28673 with 13th ESR, so these timings fit for him. I did wonder how much experience this group got before the events at Bourlon Wood in November, so it appears to be just a couple of months. Tom - the note is interesting. What was the source? regards Richard Richard, The document is attached to the War Diary for November, 1917. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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