Modern Co-ordinates needed.

[mickrose]

Hi,

Just checking facts that I believe I already have.

Can someone tell me the modern North/East co-ordinates for trench map ref. 57d L3a 80.45.

Thanks.

Mick

[Guest]

Hi Mick

Using this Click 57d.L.3.a.80.45. = 50.1398, 2.7065 see attached

Mike

temp X.kmz

[mickrose]

Mike,

I saw that website, which is why I enquired.

My original enquiry gave me. (50 degrees 8mins, 23.8 N 2 degrees 42m 24.0 E)

The conversion from the Muninn Project that your link shows

is about 10 to 15 yards south and 5 yards west of the original conversion (above) given to me

on the Forum some years ago.

I have to say that original conversion looked spot on when simply looking at the Trench map.

I have read that this website may not be accurate.

Is there any other way apart from simply looking at the trench map I wonder.

Thanks for your help Mike.

Mick

[johnboy]

The conversion from the Muninn Project that your link shows

is about 10 to 15 yards south and 5 yards west of the original conversion

A modern sat nav would be happy with that!

[mickrose]

Johnboy,

I took a satnav down a few years ago and it appeared to match what the forum member had confirmed.

(He sent within a minute a copy of the trench map with a flag superimposed on it and the modern

co-ordinates included. But just by looking at the trench map I could see that it was 80 45.

It might satisfy most but it's a question of a body in a garden OR a body under a newly built house!!!

Mick.

[johnboy]

I didn't mean to sound flippant but using map refs from 100 yrs ago to produce google earth map refs then 5 yds is not bad. If the original trench map ref given was not 100% accurate then these converters could be right, I don't know the circumstances of your search but it has to be remembered that some bodies were hurriedly buried and with fighting/shelling go on around mistakes regarding accuracy were inevitable.

[mickrose]

Johnboy,

No, you make a good point! But if we forget briefly about possible inaccuracies etc, basically I've enquired about

a trench map ref on two occasions and I have been given two different modern co-ordinates! That's the problem!!

I pretty much trust the trench map ref. given in the service record. It made sense in as much as it was a few yards behind the HQ of the unit.

(the map ref of that I also have) His body was found over 2 weeks after his death by Rev. T.B. Hardy VC in the ruins of the village between the two front lines and buried by him and as he puts it "two stretcher bearers of my unit" (8th Lincolns who arrived the day before, located a mile away).

There was no enemy action for that period, so I have to assume Rev Hardy VC and his men correctly logged it before passing it on. I also have the good Reverend's very detailed letter that he sent to my GF.

Mick.

PS. To simplify; Forget about google earth, images etc; this post is about co-ordinates. Regardless of whether L3a 80 45 was logged correctly,

it must be able to be converted to modern co-ordinates. My problem is that I have been given 2 different co-ordinates!!

(yes, only approx. 5 yards in one direction John, but 10 to 15 yards in the other direction. Quite alot when looking for a body in a garden

that has suddenly had a house built on it! So before I travel down to view this disastrous development, I need to check this detail)

[Guest]

I think johnboy puts it rather well. Where did you hear about the accuracy (or lack of it) in the Munnin Trench Map Converter.You may be right, but it seems to work quite well.

Mike

[mickrose]

Mike, this is the image sent to me a few years ago on the Forum. Whoever he was included the refs; 50 8 23.8N 2 42 24.0E.

The division marks round the edge help show you even with the human eye that the flag appears to be at L3a 80 45.

(the faint little red cross I added to mark where the Muninn Project has the spot) If you go to google earth and hover over the garden

those refs he gave me seem to be right. The two different spots are actually a bit further apart than I guessed. I measure them now

at about 20 yards or a bit more apart, not 10 to 15.

I tried to think of a way to test the MP converter, and all I came up with are crossroads in Bucquoy.

Below are just two from the 13th Royal Fus. typed War diary of April 5th 1918. Too few to prove anything I know. Both in 57d of-course.

"Enemy are reported to be in the village about crossroads L3c 90 60."

". . . Platoon on road between L3 etc etc.. and crossroads L3c 05 85."

I typed them into the MP converter and they ain't very close. One about 25 yards from nearest crossroads, the other double that.

But obviously I can't be sure they were typed right in the diary etc etc, and I can't get my CD-ROM of trench maps to work to check.

(I paid £85 for that . . .just days before the price collapsed to about nothing I think.)

I have no idea if this is a normal size of discrepancy when converting maps, but why would I trust it if nothing is nearer than

20 to 25 yards, when the other one does seem to be correct?

Hopefully, someone will come up with another converter to compare, or the member who provided the other one spots this topic.

There was a thread in 2014 where the website was mentioned. People were saying it was coming back wrong, and the conversation

was about Chrome, Internet Explorer, Firefox etc. And it does say on the page that you gave me with the link-

"Still Experimental-Not working on I.E." So maybe you'll get different results on your computer.

I'm still not saying MP converter is wrong, just that I can't see anything yet that suggests it's right.

So I'm not saying to the men of 1918 "why can't you get it right?" I'm saying to the two computer based converters of 2010 and 2015

who responded to my post- "Why are your co-ordinates for L3a 80 45 different to each other?" . . . That is what this is all about.

Cheers Mike.

Mick.

[Guest]

The ref The ref 50 8 23.8N 2 42 24.0E does not make sense. Enter that into google earth and you end up in North America. The ref given for Bucquoy on wiki is 50° 8′ 26.88″ N, 2° 42′ 33.84″ E.

The marker I gave on google earth may not be as accurate as you are looking for, as it was placed there by me, as near as I could place it.Have attached an image of the exact spot Muninn gives. Edit-Muninn does not claim to give an exact spot, it says " Note: The British Trench Map coordinate system is a grid, not a continuous coordinate system. Therefore, all locations are returned as a rectangular region. "

Mike

[johnboy]

Is there CWGC entry for him?

[Howard]

Enter that into google earth and you end up in North America.

Following many TV news reports from fighters of all kinds using Google Earth for their military needs, I suspect that its accuracy is deliberately less than what we would all like to see. I have had some detailed experience of this fitting Normandy maps to GE.

Its relative accuracy may be better, i.e. point to point, so if you take important features present during the war and draw some triangles, you may get better results. Churche spires are good or railway junctions. Road junctions are a little suspect as post war road works do not always keep them on the original position. Good reference points are worth having!

The business of georeferencing trench maps is interesting and worth study, but it often needs tweaking to get it right.

Howard

[mickrose]

Mike

"The ref The ref 50 8 23.8N 2 42 24.0E does not make sense. Enter that into google earth and you end up in North America. The ref given for Bucquoy on wiki is 50° 8′ 26.88″ N, 2° 42′ 33.84″ E."

We may be oceans apart on agreeing about things Mike!, But the two sets of co-ordinates that you've typed are about 240 yards apart.

I think the Wiki location for Bucquoy comes out roughly on the corner of Rue De Quesnoy and Rue Dierville.

You don't need to type the map refs in. I just suggested hovering over that garden and you'll match that ref. with north part of the garden,

because the map ref. is already showing at the bottom of the screen, and the spot is about 20 or so yards north of the MP converter mark.

Mick

[Guest]

So they are. I swear when I copied and pasted that into google earth the other day it took me way out west.

Can you share the identity of the man you're researching. If others can see the service record they may be able to spot something?

Mike

[mickrose]

Johnboy,

Yes, his name is on the wall for the missing at the Arras Memorial along with about 35000 others I think.

I think he lay roughly in the centre of the village, where a hand to hand battle had taken place, which would have been no mans land afterwards.

The other officer from his platoon is buried alongside the Lt Col. who was also killed, in Bienvillers Cemetery.

Rev. Hardy vc and his stretcher bearers came along a couple of weeks later and found him.

There may be a 1 or 2% chance that he is still there of-course, but if I can check it, it would still be a positive thing.

There is a document in his service record stating "We have no record of this officers body having been recovered"

Given that the date of the document was about July 1918 then it obviously refers to recovered from the battlefield

rather than recovered from his burial spot by Rev Hardy vc,

So basically they are confirming he hasn't been recovered from the battlefield at a time when he had in fact, been buried by Rev Hardy vc

at least 80 days earlier. So I think I should carry on a bit longer!

Cheers John.

Mick.

[mickrose]

Mike, Yes this is the corner of the document I mentioned to Johnboy. It wasn't May, it was a July stamp and the other one August.

It might be helpful if I knew the significance of the stamps. Maybe one signifies the opening or ending of the document.

He is the man at the bottom of my page, Uncle Eric!

He was killed on 5th April 1918 and found and buried on 24th April.

So at least 80 days or so before these two date stamps. (the July date I can't read, but appears double digit, so at least 10th.)

(I know the August date looks like '88, but when I zoom right in, the first digit is not an 8)

Mick

[mickrose]

[mickrose]

Mike,

This shows the burial details by Rev T.B.Hardy VC who was with the 8th Lincolns, and the map reference.

If this document was in the file on time, and they did look in L3a 80 45 I thought there may be a mention of it

like; "The casualty was not found at the location given" rather than what is stated on my previous image.

So it would be handy if I knew what different statements were typed on this and the previous document

in different situations. Or maybe a document to go with this one confirming he was not found in the location given.

Mick

[Guest]

Thanks for posting the details Mick. Off to work shortly, but will keep thinking about it. Hopefully someone with a bit more "thinking power" than I, can help. Good luck with your research, I truly hope you are successful.

Just a thought, have you been right through the Brigade diary for any mentions, clues or hints to his fate?

Mike

[mickrose]

Mike,

Oh yes, he's mentioned a few times. He was captured at Sapignies in March but escaped later the same day,

and because of losses, he took command of 'C' company, and won the MC in that battle before they withdrew

to Bucquoy. I've got everything but him. (that's him in my photo on the left, 8 months before he died)

Mick

[johnboy]

Another spanner in the works?

From The Old Tamensians Assoc. website the date of death is different.

Second Lieutenant Eric William Rose MC elder son of William Rose of Ford Aylesbury. On leaving LWGS in 1915 he joined his father on the family dairy farm (Moat Farm, Ford) but in 1916, he enlisted with the Artists Rifles and then gained a commission in the Lancashire Fusiliers in 1917. A letter he wrote to his family records that he travelled to London, stayed overnight in a hotel close to Victoria Station and the next day they took the train before he sailed for France 18th October 1917, sailing from Folkstone to Boulogne. A few months later he was killed in fierce fighting at Bucquoy on April 18th 1918. The London Gazette recorded on July 23, 1918, that he had been posthumously awarded the Military Cross. The Gazette said it was: “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in action.

“Although a very junior officer, he commanded his company with great courage and ability, and his resolution in leading a counter-attack was worthy of the utmost praise.”

His commanding officer wrote that he died ‘a most gallant death, fighting to the last with the remnants of his Company.’ His division, the 42nd, was mentioned by Sir Douglas Haig as contributing greatly to the successful maintenance of the line in Bucquoy. His Officer Commanding also wrote: ‘He had the makings of a great officer and was beloved by all ranks, he is a very great loss to the Battalion.’

He was listed as ‘missing’ although some soldiers were buried in Bucquoy. His name is commemorated at Ford as well as at the School.

[mickrose]

Johnboy,

Yeah I know they have it wrong, I thought I told them when I was there last. They have details of his time there.

Originally they had him as a Captain which others did too for some strange reason.

The rest of the details are correct because I supplied them!

Old Tamensians is Lord Williams school in Thame, Oxon.

[johnboy]

I have had a quick look at the WD and see he was shown as killed 5/4/18. As he was not listed as missing it would seem that someone saw him killed or saw and identified his body. As you say, it would appear that his body would have been in No Mans Land or German occupied land.

I wonder how good the map reading skills of the Rev. were?

The WD gives 2 sets of maps being used. Sheet 57D 1 - 40,000 and Sheet 57D NE 1 - 20,000

[mickrose]

Yes, he was seen and confirmed killed on the day in the village. The centre of it was no mans land after that I think.

Found by the Reverend 19 days later on the 24th. It had been pretty quiet since his death in Bucquoy,

so maybe he was the only one buried in that spot on that day.

Well I'm not gonna question the map reading skills of Rev. T.B.Hardy VC.

But feel free John!

[Guest]

I found this and wondered if any of these actions referred to your man?

Gloucester Journal - Saturday 13 July 1918

The Victoria Cross

Chaplain's Devotion to Duty

The King has been pleased to approve of the award of the Victoria Cross to the following:- The Rev Theodore Bayley Hardy DSO, MC, T/CF, 4th Class A Chap Dept, Attd Linc Regt, though over 50, has, by his fearlessness, his devotion to men of his battalion, and his unobtrusive manner won the respect and admiration of the whole Division, and his energy and endurance would be remarkable in a much younger man. Three examples of his valour are given: Hearing firing, he followed a patrol, and about 400 yards beyond our front line found an officer dangerously wounded; he remained under fire until he got assistance. When an enemy shell exploded he at once went to the spot , despite shell and trench-mortar fire, to extricate two men; he got out one who had been completely buried; the other was dead; the chaplain was was in great danger from a wall which had been hit by the shell. After it was believed that all our men had withdrawn from a wood , he came out of it, asking for help to get in a wounded man who lay within ten yards of a pill-box which had been recaptured by the enemy; the man was too weak to stand, but the chaplain and a sergeant got him to our lines; all day under fire, he was seen moving quietly among the men and tending the wounded. Mr Hardy is the third chaplain who has won the Victoria Cross in this war, the other two being the Rev E N Mellish and the Rev W R Y Addison.

Mike