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ragnorak72

NIEDERZWEHREN CEMETERY, KASSEL

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ragnorak72

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could get me a photo of the grave of 24517 Private Joseph Gillen of the 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers? He is buried in Niederzwehren Cemetery, Kassel, Germany. Grave reference I.N.5. He was a POW in Germany and apparently he drowned in the Rhine whilst trying to escape along with one or two other POWs. German POW records state he died on 05/06/18 whereas the CWGC states he died on 22/05/18. BTW could someone also translate the german at the top of column 5? I know the first word is captured but I'm not sure about the bit at the bottom. I think it relates to what POW camp he's in. I have a couple of other pages and I believe he was initially captured at St. Emlay.

post-34524-0-89105200-1431200218_thumb.j

Edited by ragnorak72

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temptage

a ) gefangennahme

b ) ort und tag

c ) vorhergehender aufenthaltsort

translates as

a ) capture

b ) place and date

c ) previous whereabouts

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temptage

I have a contact who lives close to Niederzwehren, but he works all over Germany as a University Lecturer, so I can submit the required name to him but then it will just be a case of waiting. It could be days, weeks or months depending on his whereabouts.

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ragnorak72

Thanks for the translation. It would be super if your friend can also get the photo even if it does take a while. Would you mind translating the column 6 headers too? Do you happen to know if Ronsoy was another pow camp? I have a few other pages to do with him and the first one states St. Emlay as where he was captured.

Edited by ragnorak72

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seaforths

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could get me a photo of the grave of 24517 Private Joseph Gillen of the 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers? He is buried in Niederzwehren Cemetery, Kassel, Germany. Grave reference I.N.5. He was a POW in Germany and apparently he drowned in the Rhine whilst trying to escape along with one or two other POWs. German POW records state he died on 05/06/18 whereas the CWGC states he died on 22/05/18. BTW could someone also translate the german at the top of column 5? I know the first word is captured but I'm not sure about the bit at the bottom. I think it relates to what POW camp he's in. I have a couple of other pages and I believe he was initially captured at St. Emlay.

I am researching men who were at work lagers/camps along the German-Swiss border. Four of them died (also buried at Niederzwehren). One of them was as a result of an escape attempt and he too has a discrepancy over his date of death. His service record indicates the night of 5/6 August 1918, while CWGC and SDGW have him as 16th October 1918. The soldiers' effects on Ancestry also have his date of death as being August, not October. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find a record of him on ICRC as a prisoner to see if he was registered at Heuberg.

In the POW area of the forum, I have a thread with the title Loerrach/Brombach and you might find it makes interesting reading with regard to him as I have also given information about those I found registered at Heuberg who were at this location. I have 3 further locations on the border on which I have yet to write about and post as my research is still ongoing but I suspect when I get down to these, some may well turn out to be registered at Heuberg at least one has no camp registration record, only a repatriation record.

Did Joseph's escape accomplices actually manage to get away? If so, they may have made statements that survive either in WO 161 or the FO 383 files. I would be interested to know their names if you have them.

Temptage and his contact kindly managed to get me the photographs of the graves of the 4 men who died at the different locations and were moved to Niederzwerhren and buried side by side.

Edit: Sorry - I've just seen your other thread and will move this comment there with additional information.

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temptage

Unfortunately Peter Roos hasnt updated any of his websites since 2007 so I dont think he is readily contactable anymore.

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ragnorak72

Unfortunately Peter Roos hasnt updated any of his websites since 2007 so I dont think he is readily contactable anymore.

That's a pity.

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temptage

I have asked Chaz when he was last in touch with him though. It may be that he just gave up on his websites for some reason.

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fritz

I shall be nearby Niederzwehren in the end of May and could take a pic of the grave.

Fritz

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ragnorak72

I have asked Chaz when he was last in touch with him though. It may be that he just gave up on his websites for some reason.

Do you thinks it's worth my while e-mailing him then?

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temptage

Rag, personally I wouldnt email him. Fritz has now offered to take a photo for you at the end of May anyway, so that seems like an instant fix.

Maybe you could ask Fritz to translate the remainder of the wording on the picture you posted as I cant work some of the words out.

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chaz

the worrying thing is that having brought this back to mind, I cant find his emails to and from also cant find the pictures he sent me!! frantically looking through old cd's

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ragnorak72

I shall be nearby Niederzwehren in the end of May and could take a pic of the grave.

Fritz

Sorry I hadn't noticed your post straight away. That would be super and much appreciated. Thanks Fritz. Any chance you could translate the headings at the top of column 6?

I've discovered that according to the british army record of his effects that they officially accepted his death on 22/05/18 and this is presumably the information that the CWGC used. Is there any chance of getting the CWGC to change his date of death now I've found the german POW record of his death?

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chaz

back from beyond!!

found an old hard drive with pics on... apparently they were 2007 , dost time fly when you are having fun :whistle:

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fritz

Chapter 6 meansa) day of birth and town

B) c) adress of next of kin

The lists from this time are not always as accurate. I often have seen errors in those of my relatives. The question is who has the better evidence.

Kind regards

Fritz

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fritz

Sorry about this smiley in post 17. My computer is a little crazy. :(

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chaz

as a teaser he is here somewhere along with 1790 others

post-14295-0-05346700-1431280341_thumb.j

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ragnorak72

Sorry about this smiley in post 17. My computer is a little crazy. :(

No problem about the smiley. What did B translate as?

That's a good photo Chaz. Are there WW2 graves there too or are they all WW1?

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seaforths

Sorry I hadn't noticed your post straight away. That would be super and much appreciated. Thanks Fritz. Any chance you could translate the headings at the top of column 6?

I've discovered that according to the british army record of his effects that they officially accepted his death on 22/05/18 and this is presumably the information that the CWGC used. Is there any chance of getting the CWGC to change his date of death now I've found the german POW record of his death?

My theory at the moment but Joseph Gillen, Alfred Saunders and Joseph Knowles may have all escaped on or around 22 May 1918 and the Germans would know they would be missing from that date that might be why the date of death is 22 May 1918, the later date might be when their bodies were pulled out of the river. I'm fairly certain they were kept at a place close to the river. You would be unlikely to get CWGC to change their date of death because of this. Also, the first thing CWGC would ask you to provide, would be their death certificate. In my experience, the death certificate reflects the same date that CWGC have. The fact that I have a service record and a soldiers' effects record that show one of my men died 2 and a half months earlier matters not - it's what's on the death certificate that counts (apparently) and very difficult to challenge or over turn. My man didn't drown in the river whereas these men did and their exact date of death would be even more difficult to prove

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ragnorak72

Where would I get the death certificate? Would there be a german record somewhere of the escape attempt by the group of men?

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chaz

rag, as far as CWGC site says they are all WW1.I do have other pics of cemetery from surrounding views so if you need them if Fritz is only going to take your grave stones drop me a pm with email address.

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seaforths

Where would I get the death certificate? Would there be a german record somewhere of the escape attempt by the group of men?

This is getting complicated but, you have two men Joseph Gillen R Dublin Fusiliers and E. Burdett, Queens RW Surreys both died 22 May 1918 and were originally buried at Burg, later concentrated to Niederzwehren. You then have Alfred Saunders 2/8 Worcs. and Joseph Knowles 1 North Staffs. These two were originally buried at Laufenburg, Aargau which is further upstream on the Rhine and on the Swiss side. They were later concentrated into Vevey, St Martins Cemetery, Near Lake Geneva.

I cannot, at this moment in time locate Burdett on the ICRC site to see where he was registered. No expert on English regiments but he has a 4 digit service number, may be territorial, captured pre 1917. Would suggest therefore, it might be better to open a new thread on the POW sub-forum where it might receive attention and that will leave this thread free for you to sort out your photo requests.

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fritz

rag, as far as CWGC site says they are all WW1.I do have other pics of cemetery from surrounding views so if you need them if Fritz is only going to take your grave stones drop me a pm with email address.

Some views of the cemetary

post-12337-0-16140200-1431291104_thumb.j

post-12337-0-31279000-1431291137_thumb.j

post-12337-0-22221200-1431291348_thumb.j

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