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Remembered Today:

Notts and Derby SWB at Auction price €2000- €3000


Don

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A silver war badge awarded to 5550 Pte George Simmonds 2/7 Bn Notts and Derby will go under the hammer at auction in Dublin on the 9th May.

George Simmonds was wounded in Dublin in 1916.

I wonder will it realise that guide price.

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When offered on eBay, Silver War Badges normally fetch up to £50 ...

Moonraker

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When offered on eBay, Silver War Badges normally fetch up to £50 ...

Moonraker

which ones you seen -Id say £25 - £30 is the norm at present

seems rather a lot - more like a VC winner price

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I enclose Lot no 91.

The badge is being classed as very rare. I wondered about that.

gerry

Simmonds Pte G.pdf

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Presumably classed as rare based on the Irish connection. I would guess these ones are unusual to come across ?

Craig

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I guess that the connection to the battle of Mount Street Bridge adds a bit to the value.

How knowledgeable is the auction house about this sort of thing?

Moonraker

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Hi Moonraker,

I looked at the published casualty lists for the rebellion, and I couldn't find Pte Simmonds name on any.

I would like positive proof if I was going to spend €2000+Perhaps a few Notts and Derby experts might find him.

Gerry

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It looks extremely optimistic to me.

Whilst all Irish related stuff seems to fetch a premium, and the Foresters are also a popular regiment amongst collectors, I would have thought that if you knocked the zero off the end, it would still be being optimistic. At the end of the day, it is still only a SWB.

I hope you add the result to this thread after the auction, just to prove how wrong I was!

Cheers,

Mike

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which ones you seen -Id say £25 - £30 is the norm at present

seems rather a lot - more like a VC winner price

£51 here

I do wonder at some of the prices asked on eBay - and a few of those that are actually paid. There's a Pals book listed at the moment where the bids have reached eight times what I paid for a copy a few years back. And I'm currently bidding quite a bit for a tatty old postcard addressed from a particularly interesting location in Wiltshire - and hoping no-one else spots it.

Moonraker

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Hi Mike,

I will keep a close watch on the auction,and will report back the sale if any.My instincts are that it will be withdrawn due to lack of interest.

Gerry

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Not only can I not find Geo Simmonds in casualty lists but I think I have found a WO364 record for him on ancestry.

If so, he was discharged for psoriasis and not a bullet wound.

The info on his SWB roll is 5550 George Simmonds, enlisted 31/1/16 and discharged sickness 12/12/16

The WO 364 record is for T5500 George Simmonds enlisted 31/1/16 and discharged for psoriasis in Galway 12/12/16.

Both men 2/7th Notts and Derby. Seems to me to be the same man????

On ancestry T5500 is listed under 34044 George Simmonds. I think the Regt. Number on SWB roll is an original typo.

TEW

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I think the term is 'they are having a giraffe' the official records for the award of the SWB state that it was issued due to illness.

IanC

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Wow tew,

That's very interesting.Good research there.

Gerry

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Just found this

Other Notes: George Simmonds enlisted in Dec 1915 served England then Ireland with 2/7th and was wounded during the battle of Mount Street Bridge April 1916.

His service records do not mention him being wounded (but this is not unique ) as he is listed in the Irish Times Rebellion Handbook as being wounded (incorrectly listed as a J Simmonds) and he is also mentioned as being wounded in Chris Housleys book on the Sherwood Foresters in Dublin during the Rising (this gives his complete details). He was finally discharged in Oranmore Galway in December 1916 due to psoriasis. This Wound Badge is his only military award for his war service.

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Seems to be some confusion over the date he joined - presumably the difference between attesting as a Derby Man and being called up ?

Craig

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I doubt very much that a Derby scheme man would be called up into the Territorial Force in January 1916.

There seems to be a willingness on the Auction House's part to accept the "J Simmonds" name should be G Simmonds even though the records don't back it up at all.

Can I borrow their shoe-horn once they are finished with it?

Steve.

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Craig,

Yes, he attested 10/12/15 but was mobilised 31/1/16. SWB roll uses later date as that of enlistment.

More confusion though!!!! The Times 25/5/1916 page 5 has 5527 J Simmonds Sherwood Foresters wounded in Dublin.

And there is a SWB to James Simmonds 5527 of the East Kents.

I guess Chris Housley got his information from The Irish Times List which came from The Times??

TEW

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There is a John Simmonds 5527 1/7th N&D and 27421 10th Royal Warwicks on the Medal Rolls.

Enlisted 10-12-1915 and discharged 12-3-1919 due to sickness, aged 21.

Steve.

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I came across this on a website.

  • Captain and Adjutant Frederick Christian Dietrichsen: Deans Grange Cemetery, Dublin
  • Lieutenant Percy C Perry: Nottingham General Cemetery
  • 2nd Lieutenant William Victor Hawken: Hanwell Cemetery, Middlesex
  • Pte 5592 John Blissitt: Deans Grange Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 5592 John Blissitt: Deans Grange Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 5617 Joseph H Bradford: Royal Hospital Cemetery, Killmainham, Dublin
  • Pte 5532 Charles T Dixon: Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 5480 Alfred G Elliott: Nottingham Church Cemetery
  • Pte 2961 Ernest Farnsworth: Nottingham General Cemetery
  • Pte 3080 Joseph Goss: Nottingham (New Basford) Cemetery
  • Pte 5605 Arthur Holbrook: Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin
  • Cpl 6081 Charles Hoyle: Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 4709 Percy Jeffs: Nottingham General Cemetery
  • Pte 3290 William Lang: Deans Grange Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 5664 Thomas Miller: Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 3308 A Sibley: Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin
  • Pte 5555 Walter A Tunnicliffe: Long Eaton Cemetery, Notts
  • Pte 4530 George Wylde: Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin

Along with the above killed, twelve men were so seriously wounded that they were discharged from the Army due to their physical incapacity. As Dublin was considered 'Home service' the men killed or discharged through wounds earned no medals as only overseas service qualified a man. The twelve men discharged due to wounds did qualify for a Silver War Badge which was intended to show that they had 'done their bit' for King and Country.

It would appear that the SWB was not awarded for being wounded in 1916...Would I be right in presuming this.

Gerry

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More confusion though!!!! The Times 25/5/1916 page 5 has 5527 J Simmonds Sherwood Foresters wounded in Dublin.

And there is a SWB to James Simmonds 5527 of the East Kents.

Looking more like a confusion between the two men.

I doubt very much that a Derby scheme man would be called up into the Territorial Force in January 1916.

It does happen - there are men who joined the 6th DLI this way. Presumably as they had attested with the 6th under the Derby Scheme the men were then sent that way once they were needed rather than being sent off elsewhere in the army.

Craig

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It would appear that the SWB was not awarded for being wounded in 1916...Would I be right in presuming this.

Eligibility was backdated but men who had already been discharged would generally have had to make a claim rather than have it issued automatically.

Craig

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It would have helped if the auctioneers had put the badge number on the listing. It may turn out to be Fred Bloggs' SWB after all.

If I was a buyer of SWBs I would not be happy to part with that sort of money with such a degree of uncertainty and numbering problems.

There is still no 5550 or 5500 Simmonds on any casualty list that I can find.

There is a 5527 James Simmonds who may have been East Kents or Sherwoods wounded in Dublin.

Plus 5527 John Simmonds Sherwoods.

TEW

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It would have helped if the auctioneers had put the badge number on the listing. It may turn out to be Fred Bloggs' SWB after all.

If I was a buyer of SWBs I would not be happy to part with that sort of money with such a degree of uncertainty and numbering problems.

There is still no 5550 or 5500 Simmonds on any casualty list that I can find.

There is a 5527 James Simmonds who may have been East Kents or Sherwoods wounded in Dublin.

Plus 5527 John Simmonds Sherwoods.

TEW

I was thinking the same - the number would have helped. Is is the correct badge with the wrong text or ...

Craig

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The badge no is 164800

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I guess 5527 John Simmonds and 5500 George Simmonds could both have been at Mount Bridge but only John turns up in casualty lists. Neither man was discharged for wounds so neither man received a SWB for being wounded at Mount Bridge.

Badge No. 455384 was issued to a man who was wounded in Dublin in the spring of 1916 but was discharged from the army for sickness.

Badge No. 164800 was issued to a man who may have been at Mount Bridge but was not wounded there and was discharged later for sickness.

If the auctioneers and seller want this kind of money they should be happy to provide the number.

TEW

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