Andy Wade Posted 1 May , 2015 Share Posted 1 May , 2015 Hi Everyone, I'm trying to locate a grave position through a map reference and would appreciate a little help with it please. The man in question is Driver John Thomas Raw RFA of Oxenhope in West Yorkshire. He received a GSW to the head and died of his wounds at 13th Corps Main dressing station on 22nd July 1916, just a few weeks after the start of the Battle of the Somme. Here's a small part of the document which gives the grave position: I think it says "Buried in J 20 d 90 Map 62 d. What do you think? The number 9 looks a bit suspect but I can't think what else it could be. I think this dressing station cemetery may have been exhumed and all the graves moved to Dive Copse Cemetery (where he is now) to concentrate the scattered graves into larger cemeteries. Am I right? Does anyone know more about the fate of the cemetery, was it moved to Dive Copse? Many thanks in advance for any replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 5 May , 2015 Share Posted 5 May , 2015 Looking at a trench map gives this for J 20 d..............North of Vaux sur Somme...... Map section showing distance between J 20 d and a place named "Copse cemetery" on the east of the map..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 5 May , 2015 Share Posted 5 May , 2015 Now today..... Dive Copse cemetery appears where "Lone Tree cemetery" appears to be marked on the above map section.....Google earth view.... It appears, that what was Copse cemetery ceased to exist and Lone Tree cemetery became Dive Copse cemetery... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 5 May , 2015 Share Posted 5 May , 2015 And from the CWGC........... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 5 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2015 Thanks very much indeed for your efforts Tom, I came to the same conclusion last night about Dive Copse being the former Lone Tree cemetery. I wasn't sure about Copse cemetery but I'm sure you're correct with that closing down as well. It appears to me, from looking at the trench map that his grave and those of any others at the 13th Corps Main dressing station would have been close enough to be moved later to Lone Tree/Dive Copse cemetery. If the map reference for his grave is correct then he was buried in the lower right corner of square 20 d, presumably near to where the 13th Corps main dressing station would have been situated. I'm assuming 'Corps' in this refers to Medical Corps. There's a road marked very close to this position on the trench map, which would make sense. I used the map reference reading instructions on this page to arrive at my conclusion: http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/MapRefNo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Here's the overlay on Google Earth Andy, the map reference lies along the line of latitude between what appears to be a quarry and a line of trees.... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 6 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Fantastic Tom. I did a measurement on Google maps from the road to that location D. 9. 0., and it's about 125 metres away. Now if the dressing station was alongside the road then that wasn't too far away for a cemetery for the burials of those who got to the dressing station and died of their wounds. Was there an established rule about distance away from stations to accompanying cemeteries? I wouldn't have thought they'd be too near because of the effect on morale. All this is conjecture on my part of course, all part of the learning process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 I'm assuming 'Corps' in this refers to Medical Corps. I would have thought it meant Army Corps. You quote 13th Corps above, whereas the CWGC info mentions 14 (XIV) Corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 6 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Yes, I noted that difference with CWGC and to be honest I'm not sure which is more likely to be correct. My source for '13th Corps' is from his Army record B103 form. This is in the same row and just to the left of the original image in post #1: What do you think, because I confess I'm confused whose more likely to be right in this one, CWGC or the B103. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 The B103 would be nearest to the original records in information (but errors can happen). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 6 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Yes, I was leaning that way myself. I've experienced quite a lot of errors with CWGC. I suppose the amount of times these things have been transcribed would make quite a difference and errors are bound to creep in. The B103 is an original record and I would have thought it would be slightly more likely to be correct. Does this make the entry Army 'Corps' rather than Medical 'Corps' then? Are there any RAMC experts about that could pin this down one way or the other please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonrb Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 The entry is for XIII Corps rather than Medical Corps. The Officer Commanding in the first instance was a Capt Dive RAMC from 96 Fd Amb part of 30 Div(IIRC, away from info at the moment). Hope this helps, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Does this make the entry Army 'Corps' rather than Medical 'Corps' then? No. I'm sure it is XIII (13) Corps. Just looked at the order of battle for July 1st 1916, and XIII Corps were in the line here. Two other interesting facts about Vaux sur Somme: 1) My grandfather, a caterpillar driver in the ASC was pulling pulling guns around this village in May 1918, but more importantly - 2) Just 1km to the north west is a corn field- put the co-ordinates 62d.j.19.b.1.3 into Trench Converter. Put your Google Street View Yellow Man on the Rue de Bray (D1), facing south. You will see a small layby, in which a silver Renault people carrier is parked. By the layby is a notice board that you can't read, but it is this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Richthofen_crash_site_sign_near_Vaux-sur-Somme.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 6 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2015 OK, very happy to go with the XIII (13) Corps Main Dressing Station. Many thanks for that chaps, and the bit about the order of battle. Terrific bit of information about Richthofen! And your Grandfather too! I have no idea where either of my Grandfathers were during the war. Both were in the Labour Corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 If there is an error (which looking at some contemporary records would appear to be the case) in the "Historical Information" on the CWGC website, XIV Corps should be XIII Corps, could the confusion be further compounded by there also being an error in the Service Record for the map reference for Driver/Gunner Raw's burial, which seems to read 62d.J.20.d.9.0. In the Graves Registration Form on the CWGC site associated with him, the map reference for Dive Copse Cemetery is given as 62d.J.24.d.9.0. So perhaps a simple error in the Service Record in the grid square recorded. There is nothing on the CWGC site to suggest that he was exhumed post war and reburied - i.e. there is no "concentration report" attached to his record. So I guess the question is, is it likely that during the war, he was buried, exhumed, and reinterred elsewhere? Speculation on my part, but I would have thought that would have been unlikely. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 6 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Well that is indeed an interesting thought Chris, you make a very good case. Thanks very much for your thoughts in this. There is indeed no evidence of anything having been in square J 20. d 9.0., other than the entry in his service record and it's just one piece of evidence after all. Nothing to cross refer with and there's nothing in any of the trench maps which you might reasonably expect to show evidence of the medical facilities like a small cemetery attached to them which is now gone because of the concentration of graves. They show other small cemeteries scattered about, why not the one that's supposed to be here? There's lots more evidence for square J 24. d though, which does indeed contain Lone Tree cemetery. I had never even noticed that it was one digit different from the grid reference I quoted before. Lone Tree is a little bit off the grid reference J 24. d. 9. 0. on the trench map (looks more like J 24. d 7.2. to me).. It is near enough though, to suggest that he was buried here in the first instance and not moved at all. Well spotted! Talk about not seeing the Copse for the Lone Trees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 6 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2015 I thought I ought to post a picture of the lad, printed in the local newspaper when he was reported as wounded. There was some confusion at the time as to whether he was missing. You've all contributed your valuable time to work out what happened to him, the least I can do is let you see what he looked like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 There is a June 1916 reference which reads "Main Dressing Station is at DIVES COPSE, J.24.b.6/8" http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43112_2310_0-00000?backurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2Fsearch%2Fdb.aspx%3Fdbid%3D60779%26path%3D&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_2310_0-00425 Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 7 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Can't view that I'm afraid Chris. I have FindMyPast membership, rather than Ancestry at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Hi Andy, It's on a page of an Operational Order dated 21st June 1916 which is in the war diary of 30th Divisional HQ (General Staff) - 30 Div. were part of XIII Corps Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 7 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Ah, I see, many thanks for that. Confirms it as XIII corps then. It might be worth sending in a correction to CWGC for the Dive Copse Cemetery description but I feel they'd be a long time changing it, given their workload at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 I think it says "Buried in J 20 d 90 Map 62 d. What do you think? The number 9 looks a bit suspect but I can't think what else it could be. This is a fragment of MA_004620.jpg, a 1:40,000 sheet 62D with overprint date of 03/05/1918 It is marked Sir Herbert Ellissen on the reverse. He was a key officer in the early days of the IWGC/CWGC and the purple markings are thought to be in his hand so can be considered reliable, i.e. it was "his" map. It is on the WFA Mapping the Front DVD- Somme squares 62C & 62D Other maps in the collection marked either Sir Herbert Ellissen or AAM on the reverse (thought to be Lt. Col. A.A. Messer- another early officer in the IWGC/CWGC ) showing cemeteries etc. have nothing in square 62D J20. The maps marked with these two officer's names show pre-concentration cemeteries and other early detail regarding burials. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 7 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Thank you Howard, that's extremely interesting. Given what Chris has already come up with, I think this is the cherry on top. Look at the position of the purple/red dot with a cross, in square J 24. It's not actually on Lone Tree Cemetery but it is right on the position grid ref d.9.0., which gives a good reason for them writing it in this way. I guess anyone actually going to J 24 d with that grid reference would have no trouble finding the cemetery anyway. I think it's clear that the service record form B 103 has an error in the reference number and Chris is correct in that they've swapped J 24 for J 20. Probably just a transcription error from the Army form A 36 which is what this document was made up from, along with Army form B 213 detailing the man's Army service. There's no A 36 in his service record so we'll never know if it was initially correct and it's a moot point anyway. At the end of the day it was my supposition that there was a cemetery at J 20.9.0 because of the B103 record. I don't think it was an unreasonable question because it was the only piece of evidence and there was no reason to suspect it was incorrect. It just goes to show that even perfectly legitimate records can contain errors and a little research can confirm or deny them if you know where to look, or in this case, ask. Many thanks again to everyone. I'll amend Private John Thomas Raw's records in the Men of Worth database and include an explanation about the error in the grave reference. Tremendous stuff, GWF strikes again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Hi Andy, glad it's all sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Hi Andy, Glad to have been of some help. Would it be worth starting a new topic asking if anyone could identify where the 168th Battery RFA were on 21.7.16? Hopefully, the artillery experts on the forum would pick up on it, and identify approximately where he was when he received his (later) fatal gun shot wound to his head. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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