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Remembered Today:

The Unknown Warrior's Companions


ianw

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There seems to be a bit of a debate/mystery about the ultimate resting place of the 3(?) sets of remains that were not chosen to become the Unknown Warrior. Were they all interred at St Pol or were they sent back to the batllefields they came from ?

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Ian,

"Schrapnel" (WFA Magazine Belgium, 2000/2) had an article about the British Unknown Warrior (in Dutch). Part of it based on what Brigade-General Wyatt, who chose the unknown soldier, said in an article 11 Nov 1939 (in order to set the record straight), about what happened. One sentence from that testimony (translated) : "The other remains were, according to Wyatt, reburied right near the chapel at the cemetery." This is supposed to be the chapel of St. Pol.

I have a photocopied article "The Unknown Warrior", probably from After The Battle, Before Endeavour Fades, Rose Coombs, p. 48-53. (I don't know when published) There I read (same testimony of Wyatt) : "The other bodies were removed and reburied on the military cemetery outside my headquarters at St. Pol." (No mention in this sentence of the "chapel", though a bit higher it said that the bodies were "placed in the chapel of St. Pol" (where Wyatt selected one).

Another interesting item, from the same article, after the sentence "The above account, written by the editor over several months, was taken from various published accounts" :

"It now seems uncertain, from the editor's conversations with those persons still living who were closely connected with the events of 1920, that only three bodies were taken to the chapel at St. Pol. [My question : the 3 "remaining" bodies, I presume ? It has to be, for the selection was made from 4 bodies. a.s. ] Also, as our photo shows, this chapel was not a stone building, but a tin hut which had been converted for religious services in the hutted army camp outside St. Pol. This was next to the present day Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery at St. Pol-sur-Ternoise. The two bodies remaining [two ?!, so the selection was made from 3 ?] were buried in this cemetery and we have reproduced a photograph of the two unknown graves as they are today."

Well, Ian, it does not really make matters much clearer to me.

Maybe this contains nothing new, since it seems that you have already found the affair rather mysterious yourself, probably based on this same article ?

Let me add that I am interested in this Unknown Warrior because the story goes that one of the 4 (3 ?) remains was taken from Bleuet Farm Cemetery, between Boezinge and Elverdinghe (near Ypres), a mile or so from where I live. And I have stood near the exact spot where the remains supposedly were taken, a couple of times. (By the way : very near a German headstone ! And : personally I have my doubts about the possibility that remains were taken there as one of the 3 or 4 candidates. I think all remains in that cemetery are from the end of the war, and the remains for the 'candidates' were to be from the beginning, as far as I know ...)

Aurel Sercu

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Ian,

Something I forgot in my reply.

Is there a publication or testimony saying or suggesting that the 2 or 3 sets of remains that were not chosen, were indeed sent back to the battlefields they originally came from ? And if so, don't you think that indirectly it could be found out where the chosen remains came from ? Or at least the area (Aisne, Arras, Somme, Ypres). And so : from which cemetery ?

Aurel

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The authoritative book on the history and customs of CWGC, 'Courage Remembered' by Gibson and Ward (1988), gives a different account.

It states that six unknown bodies were exhumed from Aisne, Arras, Cambrai, Marne, Somme & Ypres. These could have been of any Commonwealth nationality and could have been either soldiers, sailors (RND/RM) or airmen. The selected person was meant to represent all services and all Commonwealth nations.

The book makes no mention of what happened to the remaining bodies after one was selected. However, it seems very unlikely that they would be returned to their original burial locations as it would jeopardise the 'confidential' nature of the selection process if the actual source area became known through the others being returned. Also it would certainly have been deemed a waste of time.

Interestingly the decision to return an Unknown Soldier was made without IWGC involvement and contravened their 'no repatriation' policy! However, it has been repeated twice in recent years with the repatriation of an unknown Australian and an unknown Canadian.

The UK Unknown Soldier is not in CWGC care as it is deemed a private grave.

PS

Aurel. Well done at Yorkshire Trench. I visited it on Tuesday and it was most impressive (except for the very authentic flooding!).

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According to a letter written to the Dean of Westminster by Sir Cecil Smith in 1978,

"There was no lack of suitable places in which to deposit the bodies as the area had been fought over. There were old trenches running in all directions. The burial party quickly selected a spot and the bodies were quickly transferred. The three bodies were buried in a shell hole on the road to Albert, to which the Chaplain added a simple prayer.

Michael Gavaghan in "The Story of the Unkown Warrior" says:

It was later reported that three unknown bodies were discovered in that area and reburied in one of the many new military cemeteries, but out of many thousands no doubt found there, there is no way of knowing whether these were the same three soldiers.

Michael Gavaghan goes with the suggestion that there were four bodies.

Tom

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Aurel/Terry/Tom

Thanks for your responses. My query was prompted after reading "Battlefield Tourism" by David W Lloyd with its section on the Unknown Warrior. Brig. Gen Wyatt's account is quoted from an article in the Daily Telegraph dated 11.11.1939. Apparently the authorities at Westminster Abbey insisted on a 1914 vintage body - can't really see why.

Interesting to check out Cecil Smith in the 1918 Army List.

I can certainly conceive that some cold wet soldiers may have taken the easy way out and used a convenient shell hole - not being callous , just practical and knowing that their comrades they were dealing with would have done the same thing !

I suspect that this is one of those mysteries of the Great War that will never be solved.

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As a by the by , I was very interested to read of the effect of the arrival and interment of the Unknown warrior and the opening of the permanent Cenotaph. The pilgrimages that resulted turned these 2 adjacent sites into the centre of London and the Empire for several years.

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I can recall as a schoolboy in the 1950's we were expected to remove our caps when passing the Centotaph, everyone wearing a hat did. These days few people wear hats, but I wonder when this mark of respect faded out?

Has anyone seen any acts of respect shown in recent years (other than during Armistice week)? For instance would someone in uniform (Police, Military personel etc.) be expected to salute if passing it?

There is a move to re-introduce appropriate acts of respect/remembrance in the country again, for example the 2 minute silence at 11am on 11 Nov is once again being observed by more people in shops, railway stations, airports, factory floors etc. It would be nice to see the Cenotaph as the National symbol once again treated with some token of respect from those passing it at any time - if only to perhaps pause from their conversations and pass it in contemplative silence!

Tim

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Let me just add to Aurel's excellent reply that the Bleuet-farm story comes from a retired CWGC-headgardener who lives in Ieper. He heard it from his father, who joined the commission in Passendale in 1923. His father got it from a collegue who worked in the Ypres-area since the armistice. So you see it is a 'got it from X who got it from Y who got it from z story'. I don't have to mention how extremely carefull one has to be with these things.

best,

Bert.

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While this doesn't relate directly to Ian's question, people may be interested to know that when the Australian unknown soldier was buried in the Australian War Memorial in Canberra in 1990, the CWGC erected a new headstone in Adelaide Cemetery Villers Brettoneux signifying that the Australian soldier buried there had been removed to his own country.

Cheers

Andrew

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The CWGC also erected a new stone at Cabaret Rouge with the details of the Canadian soldier whose remains were moved to the National Memorial in Ottawa in May 2000.

Bob.

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Andrew, off topic but Adelaide Cemetery has the strangest inscription I have seen on an Australian soldier's grave:

Hark! I must go !

I am ashamed to be seen

Without the uniform of a soldier

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1. Military personnel are required to salute the Cenotaph when passing it, if they are wearing uniform, or remove hats /caps if wearing one dressed in civvies.

2. According to Brig Gen Wyatt's letter to the Daily Telegraph Nov 1939 the three remaining bodies were buried, quote, "in the military cemetry outside my headquarters at St Pol", unquote.

3. Perhaps the six bodies story is getting confused with the six barrels of earth taken from the Ypres Salient and placed in the tomb at Westminster Abbey.

John Milner

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It would seem that in the late 20's it was normal and expected for passers by to salute the Cenotaph but by the late 30's hats were only removed in the weeks surrounding Armistice Day. By 1950 few paused as they passed it.

("Battlefield Tourism" D W Lloyd.)

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"By 1950 few paused as they passed it"

Ian, I would dispute Lloyd.

My recollection of the 1950's was that the majority of men passing the Centotaph still removed their hats, and this was not only around Armistice time. I even remember being in a cab in which the cabbie removed his cap as we drove past.

Maybe following a drop off in interest in the 1930's there was a post WW2 revival. Memories of the Second World War were very fresh in people's minds at the time, most males (and many women) of 30+, and or even younger had served in some capacity, and National Service was at its height.

I remember my late father, who was a serving RAF Officer and former Bomber Command Pilot, becoming incensed when it became fashionable for the young to wear Government Surplus greatcoats and other bits of military uniform in the 1960's. At the time and as a teenager myself, I thought he was being "a square" with his rather Col. Blimpish attitude. It was only later when it dawned on me that he had lost a lot of friends during WW2 and that my Grandfather had lost many friends in The Great War that I came to understood how seeing these uniforms bring treated trivially was painful to them.

I would say that the drop off in respect to the Cenotaph did not really get under way until the 1960's when the Peace Movement took hold. Respect for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier seems to have remained more constant over the years.

Tim

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The Unknown Warrior

Aurel has referred to the After The Battle magazine publication regarding the selection of The Unknown Warrior.The publication was No 6 issued in 1974, a long time ago ,the magazine issue number is now well over a hundred.

In the article it states that in November 1939, Brigadier General L J Wyatt set the record straight to reply to the many inaccurate accounts which had been published.The Editor used Wyatt's statement and information taken from various unnamed published accounts to produce the article in Issue 6.

According to the article one unknown body was recovered from the Aisne,the Somme, Arras and Ypres .The bodies were confirmed to be British by their boots and buttons.These four bodies were taken to the makeshift chapel at St Pol by November 7 1920.On that night, Wyatt with a Colonel Gell and alone together in the chapel,Wyatt selected a body and together they placed the remains in a coffin which had been brought from England.

The other remains were removed and reburied in the military cemetery at St Pol.

A photograph is shown showing two of the unknown graves at St Pol Military Cemetery.There is not a reference to the location of third unknown grave within the St Pol Military Cemetery in the article.

A Captain Brooks of the No 68 Company Graves Registration Unit was in charge of the party which exhumed a body from an unknown grave at Bleuet Farm Cemetery which was situated in a position between the first row of graves and a tree adjacent to the boundary wall. (as shown in a photograph)

According to this article the flag which covered the body of The Unknown Warrior at St Pol was hidden from the Germans by Belgium friends of Capt Brooks during World War 2. In 1953 Captain Brooks presented the flag to the Henfield branch of the Royal British Legion. Apparently Captain Brooks had family connections with the village.

An interesting account of The Unknown Warrior

Regards

Frank East

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Andrew, off topic but Adelaide Cemetery has the strangest inscription I have seen on an Australian soldier's grave:

Hark! I must go !

I am ashamed to be seen

Without the uniform of a soldier

Hi Paul

I recall reading this inscription in John Laffin's book 'We Will Remember Them'

I believe Laffin said that the inscription referred to what the man said to his parents before he enlisted, hence the 'I must go. I am ashamed to be seen without the uniform of a soldier' ending up as the epitaph chosen by his parents.

Regards

Andrew

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Spot on Andrew:-

Private A. K Mallyon, 48th Battalion 3.5.18

I MUST GO

I AM ASHAMED TO BE SEEN

WITHOUT A SOLDIER'S UNIFORM

Quote:-"Alfred Mallyon's epitaph was the work of his parents, William and Susan of College Park, South Australia. They had tried to dissuade him from enlisting but his high sense of patriotism as well as social pressure took him into the army - and to his death. William and Susan put on his headstone a statement he had made to them when he reached his decision. It is a unique epitaph and a very revealing one."

Adelaide III K 1.

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I am glad to read this fine explanation. I had thought the family had lost their minds and imagined this wsa something he would have said after death, completely wrong, thanks.

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As Bob Coulson mentioned, the Canadian Unknown Soldier came from the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez, Plot 8, Row E, Grave 7.

The replaced headstone reads:

THE FORMER GRAVE OF AN

UNKNOWN CANADIAN SOLDIER

OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

HIS REMAINS WERE REMOVED

ON 25 MAY 2000 AND NOW

LIE INTERRED AT THE

NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL

IN OTTAWA CANADA.

For more information on the Canadian Tomb of the Unknown Soldier check out this site:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?s...=Memorials/tomb

Garth

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