Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
trajan

Turkish Bayonets II

Recommended Posts

trajan

Trajan ... just to give you the heads-up, that 'accepted' reference to (err cough) "Tuna Han" on these 1913 bayonets is a total load of 'b0ll0cks'. And it always makes me laugh. :lol:

When I was doing the work on the Turkish bayonets I went and did translations on every piece of Ottoman war materiel that I could find and I can tell you this isn't "Tuna Han".!

I can see why they tried to attach a handle to the inscription, and why they struggled. The Osmanli script is often 'stylised' and this makes normal translation virtually impossible.

Cheers, S>S

Thanks SS - and you will of course observe that I was careful to put 'Tuna Han' in inverted commas as I myself was not satisfied with the reading but have not yet had a chance to check it. That aside, I am pleased for you that your knowledge of Osmanli exceeds that of many, and so, would you like to share with us exactly what it means?

TTFN

Trajan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

... Many thanks for your very detailed and interesting reply. The research you have carried out is most impressive and you are absolutely correct about the crescent marking; there is one on the crossguard and another on the pommel. I am attaching photographs for your information.

Well it was "Otto" who first got to grips with these so all credit to him really! I have just been fortunate enough to see and handle about five and also buy the three that I have. But they are not common and so they remain little-studied items: hence I look forward to what SS can add about their origin!

Attached is from http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?185020-Nice-Turkish-M1913-rig-(Janzens-M1903-short) and shows the mark much clearer. Janzen, BTW, classed these as the 'M1903 short', in the belief that these were either Turkish-shortened M.1903's or German made shortened versions.

Julian

post-69449-0-32237300-1447059506_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

I have been trying w/o success to find a better photograph of this - there is one in Otto's Turkish bayonet guide but that is on a copy-protected CD. The point being that what is missing on the one shown above is a at the start of the mark - it is visible on my example and on Otto's also... Would you agree with that SS? And would you care to share your reading? I assume that you are not bluffing!!! :whistle:

TTFN,

Trajan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Haselgrove

Julian,

Again, thanks very much. The link to the other forum is interesting and, once winter sets in and there is more time, I will explore it further.

Regards,

Michael.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

... The link to the other forum is interesting and, once winter sets in and there is more time, I will explore it further. ...

Hello Michael,

Like most on GWF, I am happy to help and share in anyway - especially when it comes to bayonet studies! Meanwhile, while we await fresh comment on the meaning of the marking of these 'Tuna Han' bayonets, here are two more views of this, both from: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?395148-Turkish-m13-bayonets They were posted by GBF member Jack 'Greekman44': he is quite the enthusiast and posts a variety of finds for others to see - and GBF does have quite a variety of other bayonets of all periods and countries for you to peruse over the winter months! Anyway, here they are:-

post-69449-0-41092200-1447163213_thumb.j post-69449-0-75887700-1447163233_thumb.j

Note that as on the left example, these marks do sometimes appear upside down, but on both of these you clearly see the ط at the start of the mark, which I understand is a 'T', and how this is ligatured to the next letter. I have naturally used an Arabic font here but the Osmanlıca form is essentially the same

Best,

Julian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Trajan ... just to give you the heads-up, that 'accepted' reference to (err cough) "Tuna Han" on these 1913 bayonets is a total load of 'b0ll0cks'. And it always makes me laugh. :lol:

.. SS ... would you care to share your reading? I assume that you are not bluffing!!! :whistle:

Well, the challenge was not taken up… So, I guess that I had better resolve the issue over that "total load of 'b0ll0cks'" regarding the accepted meaning of the marking on those M.1913 bayonets… Only natural really, I suppose, as one advantage of living over here is access to both Osmanlica-Turkce dictionaries and to people who actually deal with Ottoman Turkish on a day-by-basis…

Although we still have no idea how SS reads the mark, he is certainly correct in saying that it does not read ‘Tuna Han’… It was always clear that it starts with a ‘T’ followed by a soft or hard ‘O’ or ‘U’. But then it becomes more stylized with the third letter seemingly an 'N'. Once it is seen that it is actually a Persian-style ‘P’ and that the following 'He' is really a 'Ha', then it becomes straightforward - ‘Tophane’. The next bit is also confusing, but it reads ‘senne’’, and so ‘in the year’, from where we go to ‘31’ for AH 1331 = AD 1913/14. And so: '[Made at the] Tophane [armoury in the] year [13]31'

Over to you SS? Does this match your reading? Whatever, thanks for the 'heads-up' on this one! Nice to have it sorted, as it were!

TTFN,

Trajan

EDIT: Before anyone jumps in with a fast correction, yes, of course I know that 'Tophane' means 'armoury' by itself... Top = cannon, han(e) = place/store/ etc.. But Tophane is also the name of the building and the district it stands in, and so the amplification above...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Been a while since I looked at this thread and SS's nice and encouraging challenge to "do my homework"! Duly done, sir, as another year dawned and, yes I am still here! 

 

I thought I'd post this nice image though of one of these worn in the Arabian campaign - taken from Harp Mecmuasi, a collection of images collated by A.F.Bilkan and O.Cakir (Istanbul 2004) with a poor commentary printed on even poorer paper from the war-time Ottoman weekly of the same name. I have managed to get some originals of the same magazine but not that with this one in it (one I did get shows WW1 Ottoman soldiers with shortened Martini-Peabody Rifles with socket bayonets!). There are a few images of the M.1913 'on duty' as it were in WW1, including one of soldiers at Canakkale, but this is one of the best I know of.

scan0001.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

And so back to Peabody-Martini's... Please find for your reading pleasure a couple of articles on these - not for re-distribution and re-publication elsewhere though!  No, I don't mind people find mistakes, etc. - all part of the game!

 

Julian

BENNETT 2019 P-M Bayonets.pdf BENNETT 2018 P-M RIFLE.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zuluwar2006

HERE IS AN EXTREMELY RARE CONVERTION.

A TURKISH 1903 BAYONET, CONVERTED FOR GREEK MANLICHER 1903 RIFLE FROM THE GREEK ARMY, DURING THE GREEK  TURKISH WAR 1921-1922.

AN EXTREMELY RARE BAYONET, WITH ITS EXTREMELY [MORE RARE FROM THE BAYONET] ORIGINAL SCABBARD, MADE FROM GREEK ARMY, SIMILAR WITH IRON SCABBARDS MADE FOR MANLICHER 1903 BAYONET.

LOOK AT THE EXTENTION OF THE RING, WHICH ATTACHED TO THE RIFLE.

GREEK BAYONET 1.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 2.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 3.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 4.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 5.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 6.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 7.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 8.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 9.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 10.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 11.jpg

GREEK BAYONET 12.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

A great piece there D.! I have a drawer full of unaltered Greek Y.1903's, including a naval one, but have never seen of of these here... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...