A mystery: Sgt Horace Henry Loveday, 14617, 8th Battalion, Norfolk Reg

[JonNorfolk]

I need some help here to piece together various facts, and a family story:

Horace is my partner's great grandfather.

He died 31st July 1917, opening day of the 3rd battle of Ypres. Commemorated at Menin Gate.

The 1911 census has him living in Norwich on Vincent Road near the Britannia Barracks. He gives his occupation as Sergeant, 3rd Norfolk Regiment.

Interestingly his children's birthplaces give a geographical timeline of a serving soldier pre-WW1:

Sidney and Harold 1902 and 1904 Northern India

Cecil 1905 Colchester

Lydia 1908 Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

George 1910 Gibraltar

I'm not sure why he was allowed to take his wife with him, particularly as he was not an officer. Any ideas?

In 1913 he was landlord of The Duke Of Marlborough, then The Cock, both in Norwich. He ran this pub until 06/04/1914. http://norfolkpubs.co.uk/norwich/cnorwich/nccoc1.htm

19/01/1915 sees the birth of my partner's grandfather, Arthur and on his birth certificate, Horace states his occupation as Licensed Victualler and Quarter Master of the Norfolk Regiment!

25/07/1915 he disembarks with the 8th Norfolk's for France.

I thought my research was going pretty well at this stage.

The family story is that he had a strong "disagreement" with a new young Officer and rather than face a court martial, he was sent to the front and told not to come back. At this time, July 1915 he was 36 years old.

Would this be in any records anywhere to back up this story? Unlikely I think.

Then on searching the internet further I came across this story of a trip by the British Transport Police History Group to Menin Gate to lay a wreath to commemorate those Transport Police who gave their lives in WW1.

And who should be named but PC Horace Henry Loveday of the Midland Railway, Sgt, Norfolk Regiment, died 31/07/1917! http://www.btphg.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Wipers-Lines-2014.pdf

As you can imagine I was surprised by this information. Now he seems to have enlisted in Carlisle, a strange location for a Norfolk man already in the army.

But he does seem to have been doing several jobs over a very short period of time.

So I was hoping I could call on your expertise to help me out.

Have I got it very wrong and there are two men I'm researching, or did he manage to combine several jobs in order to support a large family?

Why did he enlist when he was already in the army?

Have I missed some records that might clear up my confusion?

Thank you in anticipation.

[helpjpl]

If you have access to ancestry there are various UK Railway Employment Records for H and and HH Loveday. However, I can't see any that relate to your man.

HH Loveday Chief Signal Inspector. Resigned 30/06/1899.

1891 Census -

Henry H Loveday. Born abt 1839. Inspector Midland Railway. It seems that his sons, Arthur H, Henry H, and Horace also worked for the railways.

JP

[rob carman]

This may not help too much with Horace himself, but it may provide some contemporary context.

Between 1908 and 1914 the Norfolks fielded only two regular battalions (1^st and 2^nd) and three TF battalions (4^th, 5^th and 6^th).

Before 1908 there was a 3^rd (Volunteer) Bn recruiting from the regions served by the following volunteer Rifle Companies.

5 K Lynn

6 Aylsham

10 Fakenham

11 Holt

12 Reepham

13 Cromer

15 E Dereham

16 Swaffham

17 Snettisham

19 Holt

23 Downham Mkt

24 N Walsham

The 3^rd Volunteers in 1908 became part of the 5^th (County) Bn, a TF unit.

In 1908 the 3rd and 4th (Militia) Bn were disbanded and their members were formed into a new 3rd Bn of Special Reserve men. See: http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/01/norfolk-regiment-3rd-special-reserve-bn.html

(This paragraph was added to correct omission. 4/30/15)

In 1911 Horace was living in Norwich an area covered by the another TF Bn, the 4^th (City) Bn.

The 8^th Bn was initially made up largely of former regulars and territorials.

Rob.

[clk]

There appears to be some kind of pre war attestation/service record for Horace available on Findmypast http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-military-armed-forces-and-conflict?firstname=horace&firstname_variants=true&lastname=loveday which might help.

The Roll of Honour on the British Transport Police History Group website http://www.btphg.org.uk/?page_id=1698 shows a H H Loveday that worked for the Midland Railway, and was based at Carlisle. This would appear to tie back to the place of enlistment shown on his Soldiers Died in the Great War entry http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uksoldiersgreatwar&new=1&gsfn=horace&gsln=loveday&rank=1&gss=angs-d&sbo=1&gsfn_x=XO&gsln_x=XO&pcat=UK_WWI_COLLECTIONS&fh=0&h=660483&recoff=7+9&ml_rpos=1

Soldiers' Effects http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6129999_0099-00157/744441?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dukarmyregisterseffects%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d39%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dhorace%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dloveday%26gsln_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults shows that a War Gratuity of £16 - 10s was paid following his death. Using Craig's calculator (see hyperlink in post #35 in the topic http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225333&page=2) he seems to have (re)enlisted, or been called out of the reserve, around January 1915. If that were to be the case, what I find difficult to understand is how in that month he would have been both a Licensed Victualler (from the birth certificate of his son), and Midland Railway Transport Police.

Regards

Chris

[ss002d6252]

If it was the same man then I'm not sure he could be a licencee and a police officer, is it possibly a relative of a similar name?

Craig

[ss002d6252]

There appears to be some kind of pre war attestation/service record for Horace available on Findmypast http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-military-armed-forces-and-conflict?firstname=horace&firstname_variants=true&lastname=loveday which might help.

The Roll of Honour on the British Transport Police History Group website http://www.btphg.org.uk/?page_id=1698 shows a H H Loveday that worked for the Midland Railway, and was based at Carlisle. This would appear to tie back to the place of enlistment shown on his Soldiers Died in the Great War entry http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uksoldiersgreatwar&new=1&gsfn=horace&gsln=loveday&rank=1&gss=angs-d&sbo=1&gsfn_x=XO&gsln_x=XO&pcat=UK_WWI_COLLECTIONS&fh=0&h=660483&recoff=7+9&ml_rpos=1

Soldiers' Effects http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6129999_0099-00157/744441?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dukarmyregisterseffects%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d39%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dhorace%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dloveday%26gsln_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults shows that a War Gratuity of £16 - 10s was paid following his death. Using Craig's calculator (see hyperlink in post #35 in the topic http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225333&page=2) he seems to have (re)enlisted, or been called out of the reserve, around January 1915. If that were to be the case, what I find difficult to understand is how in that month he would have been both a Licensed Victualler (from the birth certificate of his son), and Midland Railway Transport Police.

Regards

Chris

I suspect this is another case of part of the gratuity having already been paid out - similar men in the Norfolk's would suggest the number dates from approx Sep 14 - in which case my calculator will give a latest possible date of enlistment rather suggesting the actual date.

Craig

[JonNorfolk]

Thank you for your replies to my queries.

It will take me a little while to search through all your suggestions.

I have though Chris had a look at Horace's pre war service record on Findmypast. I use Ancestry and they don't seem to have this record.

It shows his join up date as 1894 and gives his age as 18, although I'm pretty sure he was only 15 at the time.

Also hand written on the document is his promotion to Corporal in 1900. Thanks for that tip.

I wonder if his work on the Railways was more about policing the troop movement on the trains rather than checking tickets? There must have been a need for Police to keep control of the large amount of troops travelling on the railway system at that time. I think this kind of police work would have been more of his thing,and perhaps because he was experienced at handling trouble they might have overlooked his other work?

It is possible too that there was another H H Loveday working for Midland Railway at this time and he has been mixed up with Horace's death in July 1917.

More work needed I think.

Many thanks to all again,

Jon

[clk]

1891 Census -

Henry H Loveday. Born abt 1839. Inspector Midland Railway. It seems that his sons, Arthur H, Henry H, and Horace also worked for the railways.

JP

Following the census returns forward it looks like that Horace above (born circa 1871 in Derby) became a bank cashier (1901) and a bank manager (1911) in Matlock, Derbyshire. Henry H (Herbert) (born circa 1839 in Titchmarsh, Northants.) appears to be the son of Joseph born c1798 in Islop, Northants. The 1851 census has him as a mat maker living in Ketton, Rutland.

Looking at Horace Henry he seems to be the son of Isaac (born circa 1852 in Norwich). He seems to be son of a widowed Hannah (in 1861) who was born in Northants (circa 1815). but living in Norwich. She seems to be the wife of another Isaac, who in the 1851 census is living in Norwich as a mat maker, born circa 1805 in Islop, Northants.

In the time that I've spent on it, I haven't got back any further, and I guess that it would need birth and marriage certificates where available, or copies of parish registers to "prove", but whilst conjecture on my part, Joseph and Isaac (senior) could well have been brothers, or at least close family members.

Coming forward in time, at some point after ceasing to be the landlord of the Cock in Norwich in April 1914, it may be that your Horace used his family connection with Henry Herbert and his employment with the Midland Railway, to get his job as a Police Constable with it.

I did wonder if it were the same Horace, he lied about when he was born in the Findmypast record so that he could join up. I haven't actually seen the record though. It would be interesting to know if it shows any NoK/family details.

Regards

Chris

[eairicbloodaxe]

FWIW... In my humble experience of geneological research, when you have two sets of facts that seem to conflict, they almost always turn out to be about separate people.

We start by assuming they're one and the same. We make some of the bits fit. And we try hard to find excuses (sometimes quite outlandish ones) as to why the records are "wrong".

This happens even if the name is relatively unusual.

I'd put my money on your Horace not being the same man as the conflicting one.

Regards

Ian

[Kitty55]

Tell me about people with the same name - one family in Dereham - have 14 relations all named Bertie, Fred or Albert and all enlisted for WWI. It can become a nightmare if you're not careful.

I would suggest when you have time to look through some local newspapers of his area - I find that sometimes this can clarify the problem - but only sometimes.

Personally I've got two Loveday's who enlisted in Dereham according to the Roll of Honour which was done as a memorial to all those who enlisted in town. On this is listed over 1,000 men with the following details Rank, Surname, Initial/Christian name, Regiment, and whether they were killed/killed in action/wounded/died with the date next to the relevant entry.

On this there are only 2 Lovedays

C. Loveday enlisted in the 1/6th Welsh Regt and

Alfred Loveday enlisted in the Essex Regt which was in town during the period he was wounded in France.

However, I havent worked my way that far down the listings yet.

I'll keep a lookout to see if there is any mention in listings/articles in the Norfolk Chronicle or the old Dereham and Fakenham Times for you as I'm researching the Dereham soldiers. However,

Still, I can confirm that in 'Soldiers who Died in the Great War 1914 - 19 - part 14 - the Norfolk Regt.' page 14 col 1, all it says about H. H. Loveday, is as follows: -

LOVEDAY, Horace Henry, b. Sprowston, Norfolk; enlisted. Carlisle, Cumberland, 14617, Sgt., killed in action F & F 17/2/17 - so nothing new there with the exception that it confirms he was in the Norfolks and he is the only Loveday listed killed in that Regiment (the 8th).

So that's that cross-referenced for you.

thanks and take care, Kitty

[PRC]

I’ve had a try at pulling the timeline together – apologies for duplicating some of whats already been posted.

July to September 1879

The birth of a Horace Henry Loveday was recorded in the July to September quarter of 1879 in the St Faiths District of Norfolk, (which included Sprowston)

According to FreeReg, the baptism of Horace Henry took place in 1879 at St Mary and St Margaret, Sprowston, Norfolk. However it seems that the records for the exact date have been rendered illegible for this parish. Horace’s parents were Isaac, a Carter, and Elizabeth. The baptism of another child of Isaac and Elizabeth was recorded in the same church in 1887 – a daughter Maud Ethel. Isaac is then recorded as a Basket Maker.

(Edit – Family Search has the baptism taking place on the 7^th September 1879)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JSTL-KZ9

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939F-RX9K-TT

The 1 year old Horace Henry was recorded on the 1881 census at Sidney Row, Sprowston. This was the household of his parents, Isaac, (aged 30? and a Carter from Norwich) and Elizabeth, (aged 31 and from Sprowston). Their other children are:-

Alice…………………aged 7…………..born Sprowston, Norfolk

George…………….aged 4……………born Sprowston, Norfolk

The 11 year old Horace was recorded at 7 Peacock Street, Norwich on the 1891 census. The 39 year old Isaac is now recorded as a Rush Basket Maker. Elizabeth is aged 40. Daughter Alice, 17, is working as an Upholsterer. George, 14, appears to be a Rush Coller Maker(?). Son Horace, 11, is still at school. The family has grown with the addition of Maud, (aged 5 and born Sprowston).

By 1901 he was probably already in the Army and if he was serving overseas or in Scotland\Ireland he would not have been recorded on the Census for England and Wales.

January to March 1902

The marriage of a Horace Henry Loveday to a Frances Holdsworth was recorded in the Norwich District of Norfolk. Registrars reference is Volume 4B, Page 92 Line Number 296 on Genes Re-united.

However on the LDS Family Search site its given as Volume 4B, Page 282, Line Number 24. (The entry on their website also references the other couple whose marriage was recorded on the same page – they otherwise have nothing to do with Horace and Frances).

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2638-3QS

16^th January 1904

The baptism of a Harold George Loveday, born 16^th January 1904, took place on the 7^th February 1904 at Ranikhet, Bengal, India. Father was Horace Henry and mother Frances.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGW3-3BW

According to the GRO Index of Regimental Births (1761 to 1924), Harold’s father served in the 9^th Foot. The 9^th Foot were renamed as a result of the Haldane Army Reforms of 1881 as the Norfolk Regiment.

There is also a Lydia F. (born Pietermaritzburg 1908), who had a father in the 9^th Foot, a Cecil, (born 1906 Colchester), who had a father in the 9^th Foot, a George A, (born Gibraltar 1909) and a Sidney Horace born 1909 Kataphar\Darjeeling, both with a father in the 9^th.

1911 Census

The 32 year old Horace, born Sprowston, Norfolk, and a Sergeant in the 3^rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, was recorded as the head of the household at 49 Vincent Road, Thorpe Hamlet, Norwich. He lives there with his wife of 9 years, Frances Loveday, born St James, Norwich and aged 31.

The couple have had five children so far, all then still alive and residing with them. They are:-

Sidney…………..aged 8…………..bornJalaphar (India)

Harold….………aged 7…………..born Raniket (India)

Cecil……………..aged 5…………..born Colchester, Essex

Lidia……………..aged 3…………..born Pistermag? British South Africa

George………….aged 1…………..born Gibraltar

Strangely there is neither a soldiers will or a civil will recorded with the Probate Service – you would have thought a Pub Landlord would have had something to leave.

Horace is also remembered in Eaton – one wonders if his next public house was in that Parish.

http://www.eatonparish.com/ccepages/ww1.htm

Eaton - The Great War - Panel 5 by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

Edit – For the 1912-13 Electoral Register. Horace Loveday is recorded as an Elector. The nature of his qualification to vote is that 49 Vincent Road is a “(Dwelling-house) service” – I assume this meant the house went with the job. The same status applies to a number of other houses on Vincent Road.

Update 03/07/2015

The death of Frances is most likely that of a 58 year old woman who’s death was recorded in the Norwich District in the July to September quarter of 1938. Unfortunately doesn’t look like there is a probate or will for Frances either.

Now we get another mystery. After August 1911 it became mandatory for the mothers maiden name to be recorded when a birth was registered in England and Wales. I therefore ran a check of family name Loveday, mothers maiden name Holdsworth on FreeBMD, expecting to find a match for your partners grandfather, but found nothing.

The birth of an Arthur Loveday in the January to March quarter of 1915 is recorded in the Norwich District, but the mothers maiden name is recorded as Spaul. This is the only instance of this combination on the General Registrars Index of Births for England and Wales 1911-2006. I also could not find a marriage of a Loveday to a Spaul in England and Wales. So the next questions would be:-

1. Have I got the right 1902 wedding
2. Was Frances a widow

Obtaining a copy of the marriage certificate would answer both of those.

I could not find a Frances Holdsworth or Frances Spaul, born Norwich, recorded on the 1881, 1891 or 1901 census for England and Wales nor could I find a birth registered in Norwich. I tried then searching on just the first name for the period 1879-1881 and still drew a blank. Removing the location and widening the time frame to+/- 5 years brings up a number of possibles, all originating in the Yorkshire and Derbyshire area for a Frances Holdsworth. There are then three potential matches for a Frances Spaul, 2 from London, 1 from Durham.

I notice he is recorded as a employee of the Midland Railway Company. This company combined with the Great Northern Railway to joint run services into East Anglia, with a major station at Norwich. Their station used to sit at the end of Barn Road, (where Halfords is now) and was a major employer in the surrounding area. An old soldier like Horace with a good record might well have found employment in the Railway Police as a way to supplement income from the Pub, which might well have been left in the hands of his wife and family to run day to day. His employment may well have had nothing to do with the Midland's based Lovedays at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_Great_Northern_Joint_Railway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich_City_railway_station

Edit 4th July 2015

With the mass join up and mobilisation of 1914. the Railways may well have been short of trained men and so what few they had could have been spread further.

The 3rd "Battalion" was the Depot Unit, a small cadre used in peacetime to maintain the Regimental Depot. In the case of the Norfolks that was Britannia Barracks on Vincent Road.It would also have a training role for new recruits, which was rapidly expanded in the opening months of the war.

One last thought, (for now!). Frances gives her birthplace as St James, Norwich on the 1911 census. That parish would have incorporated both Britannia Barracks and parts of the Cavalry Barracks further down the hill. Frances could well have been an Army "brat", which might well explain the lack of appearances on the censuses.

[Kitty55]

Hi PRC

Not all landlords of the period you're talking about had money - many of them especially in my area had to have other jobs to support their families as well as being a landlord. When I first started doing this research (almost nearly 50 years now) I was surprised to find that out; as I had always thought it had been a good trade to be in no matter when. However, wartime was a hard time, especially if there were a lot of troops locally - the hours and who you served were not only controlled by the local council, police and county but many times by the military in residence in the area. In Dereham there are certainly examples of the military authorities threatening to take the soldiers out of town if their demands were not met - on one occasion is concerned the opening hours of the pubs, they wanted them to shut an hour earlier at 9pm - on this occasion the local council were in an uproar, probably as two of their members owned pubs.

thanks and take care, Kitty

[Kitty55]

PRC

Sorry forgot to say - - well done on your time line - I'm doing that kind of thing all the time - it recently earned me the comment of "why does everything you do look so easy Kitty?" Reply - "I've done it for so long but I can still get it wrong, I've just got better at covering my mistakes before others realize they're there".

thanks and take care, Kitty

[PRC]

Thanks Kitty,

I'm toying with the timeline approach at the moment - it seems to work well for individuals but its a bit impractical for researching all the names on a war memorial. It can also make you look a bit psychic - sometime reading it for the first time would have to follow it all the way through to understand why some of the earlier bits of information are relevant.

Totally take your point about Pub Landlords. The original Public Houses were a room in the Landlords House, and even when the Breweries began to buy these up they put tenants in and "tied" them to only selling their brews. Given the state of this part of Norwich when the war broke out - still recovering from the floods of 1912 - and the relative poverty of the area anyway, then it would be more than likely that a second job would be required. Funnily enough I came across several instances of this when researching the family trees for both my family and my wifes family. One distant male relative of mine appeared to have disappeared altogether from the 1911 census - his wife was down as Publican's Wife and daughter as Barmaid in a Pub in the East End of London but turned out he was a Night-watchman in a nearby Dockyard and so wouldn't have been home at midnight on the night of the census :-)

[ss002d6252]

I suspect this is another case of part of the gratuity having already been paid out - similar men in the Norfolk's would suggest the number dates from approx Sep 14 - in which case my calculator will give a latest possible date of enlistment rather suggesting the actual date.

Craig

Having done (much further work) on the gratuities...

I would say, after a manual calculation, that he had 35 months service*.

35 months back from July 1917 gives an enlistment date of Sept 1914.

#14616 enlisted Sep 1914

#14611 enlisted Sep 1914

My calculator works fine for some calculations but is thrown by others ( I need to re-work it).

* Payable war gratuity of £16 10s + £3 service gratuity = £19 10s full gratuity.

A Sgt got £8 basic gratuity for first 12 months then 10s a month = 12 months + 23 months or 35 months total service.

Craig

[the gunners dream]

Just a little bit on the Norfolk Regiment and mainly the way that men were fed into the 3 New Army battalions, namely the 7th, 8th & 9th Battalions.

A number of men from each of these battalions came from other areas of the country, namely the North and London. Part of the history of the 8/Battalion actually mentions that they started on 4th September 1914 at St Martin's Plain with 1 officer and 250 other ranks and by September 15th the battalion had reached a total of 1,200 men. By September 20th it was 1,300 and the Adjutant of the battalion also noted,

'It was impossible to prevent new recruits coming. A company would start a route march 300 strong and return with 310, and no one knew or could find out who were the new men.'

You might want to take note that his date of entry falls in line with their date of entry to France where they served on the Somme right up to 1st July 1916. They went over the top at Montauban on the first day, saw action at Delville Wood on 19th July 1916 and assisted in the capture of Thiepval between 26th and 30th September 1916 and were instrumental in capturing most of the Schwaben Redoubt on 4th October 1916. They also took part in the capture of Regina Trench on 21st October 1916.

In 1917 prior to 3rd Ypres they saw action at Miraumont on 17th February 1917 and the attack on Grevillers Trench and Irles on 10th March 1917. On 3rd May 1917 they were involved in the attack on Cherisy before they moved to Ypres on 3rd July 1917.

Steve

[JonNorfolk]

Just revisited after a long time away. Thank you everyone for the posts particularly PRC and Kitty.

Just a few comments.

I have now no doubt that former regular Horace Loveday was both a publican and did serve with the Midland Railway Police.

He came from a family of Rush Collar ( horse collars were made out of rushes) makers from the village of Islip, Northants some of whom moved to Norwich.

The Vincent Road house would be dwellings for the Norfolk Regiment's Quartermaster.

His wife Frances is more tricky to pin down, but the spelling Spall gives better results including a baptism at St James, Norwich, 1880. I think she may have used the name Holdsworth for the marriage in 1902, for what reason I don't know. Was she a widow?

 

But thanks once again for all your help, I appreciate it.

 

 

[PRC]

As you're probably aware there is no obvious marriage in England Wales for a Francis Spall \ Spaul \ Spaull to a Mr Holdsworth - but could be an admin error in the original documents \ transcription error, etc etc..

 

As you've found a baptism record for her, do you have parents details? Might be worth checking to see if it was the mother who subsequently married a Mr Holdsworth. The young Frances may then have taken her stepfathers name. Otherwise could be a case of sending for the marriage certificate to see if that makes sense of the name changes. 

 

There was a steady move of people back and forth between Norwich and Northamptonshire as part of the Boot and Shoe trade - some of my own family made the journey at the turn of the century in the opposite direction but came back after a couple of years :-)

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

[ss002d6252]

Nearest I can see is Florrie



Craig

[JonNorfolk]

Thanks again for the help, Peter and Craig.

 

Maria's maiden name is Steward. This baptism is from the records of St John de Sepulchre church in Norwich.

Strangely George about a year later, moved to Liverpool leaving his wife and children behind in Norwich. George remarried and had children, but not Maria??

Also baptised on this day was a brother George and a 12 year old aunt.

 

Regards

Jon

[PRC]

2 hours ago, JonNorfolk said:

Thanks again for the help, Peter and Craig.

 

 

Maria's maiden name is Steward. This baptism is from the records of St John de Sepulchre church in Norwich.

Strangely George about a year later, moved to Liverpool leaving his wife and children behind in Norwich. George remarried and had children, but not Maria??

Also baptised on this day was a brother George and a 12 year old aunt.

 

Regards

Jon

Sorry Jon - have I missed a step.

 

You originally said the baptism was in St James. St James on Barrack Street, now the Puppet Theatre and St John de Sepulchre, Finkelgate, (Bracondale end of Ber Street), are opposite sides of the Victorian city. Are you saying Maria Steward is the mother of Frances Spall \ Spaul \ Spaull or the same person ?

 

Confused of Norwich :-)