Australian bayonets II

[trajan]

Well, this one came up on GBF and I wanted to share it with you all on 'Australian bayonets' (at http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189766),but that thread has been locked. So perhaps time to start a new one and continue things?

Anyway, what is it? Well, it was posted today at: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?396313-Question-about-quot-Gallipoli-quot-bayonets but I thought it handy (and I know Jack would agree) to have the photographs here, as it is a Turked example... Dare one say - on the eve of the anniversary? - that perhaps it was a capture? It has the small arrow in the D, which SS notes on his thread at post no. 9 as being a a pre-war (I assume GW!) mark. Hopefully SS will give an opinion!?

[MRDK1]

Hi,

On many occasions I have seen the statement that:

British and Commonwealth sword bayonets pattern 1907 modified by Turkey were captured during the Great War or that they were given to Turkey by Germany after allied defeats in WW2.

I do no think this is likely for a number of reasons.

1. Some have markings that clearly show they were made after the Great War.

2. Some have markings they were made as late as February 1945.

At the end of the Great War parts of Turkey were occupied by the allied powers and I can't see any reason why they would allow Turkey to keep captured equipment.

Any soldier would avoid the enemy to keep captured equipment.

I personally think these bayonets were acquired by Turkey after WW2. NATO have transferred much older equipment to Turkey.

Just look at the Turkish use of M 60 Main Battle Tanks.

It is naturally possible that some of this equipment were hidden from the allies.

But don't forget that it is the "romance" of the Gallipoli captured bayonets that sells so well on eBay not the bare facts.

Cheers

Michael

[trajan]

... On many occasions I have seen the statement that: British and Commonwealth sword bayonets pattern 1907 modified by Turkey were captured during the Great War or that they were given to Turkey by Germany after allied defeats in WW2.

I do no think this is likely for a number of reasons.

1. Some have markings that clearly show they were made after the Great War.

2. Some have markings they were made as late as February 1945.

At the end of the Great War parts of Turkey were occupied by the allied powers and I can't see any reason why they would allow Turkey to keep captured equipment. Any soldier would avoid the enemy to keep captured equipment.

I personally think these bayonets were acquired by Turkey after WW2. NATO have transferred much older equipment to Turkey. Just look at the Turkish use of M 60 Main Battle Tanks.

It is naturally possible that some of this equipment were hidden from the allies. But don't forget that it is the "romance" of the Gallipoli captured bayonets that sells so well on eBay not the bare facts.

Oh I quite agree in principle Michael with much that you state here, and there was recently quite a too-ing and a fro-ing on another thread on the this subject at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225837&hl=

Forgive me, though, if I get into a long-winded explanation / reply, beginning by stressing something I know you already know, that there are [A] 'Turked' P.1907 bayonets with pre-1918 markings and crossguards left intact to fit a SMLE (as is the case here), and there are Turked P.1907's of the same pre-1918 period that have crossguards altered to fit (as I understand it) the Enfauser and/or the Turkish M.35 rifle. And some of these bayonets (like this unconverted one) are marked for Australia. And of course there are post GW P.1907 bayonets that show evidence for Turkish use.

Now, I don't doubt for one minute there is the possibility that some SMLE's and bayonets came over here during WW2, perhaps as a kind 'lease lend' for Turkey staying out of things - after all, when Sept 1939 came along GB kept the Spitfires that they had already sold (or agreed to sell!) to Turkey and gave them to the RAF, and so owed Turkey a few favours! And that could have included equipment - I have seen photographs of Turkish soldiers wearing British tin-hats of WW2 vintage... But would GB be supplying Turkey with Australian-marked bayonets in WW2? As for the possibility of them coming over in NATO days (1952), well, the regular Turkish rifle then (as used in the Korean War) was the Kirikale Mauser 35 (subsequently slowly replaced with a few Garands and then universally by the FAL), and I can't really see the Turks allowing themselves to be lumbered with a ‘gift’ of SMLE’s at that time - although never say never, and there are Turkish-marked spikes for no.4 rifles around... So, a query - is the 02/45 example you know of a ‘Turked’ one with crossguard intact or a ‘Turked’ one with a crossguard modified for an Enfauser? If the former I’ll eat my (proverbial) hat!

And as for your point about it being unlikely that the Brits., etc., would allow Turkey to retain any captured weaponry after 1918, well, one only has to look at how the Reichsheer managed to 'loose' a few thousand rifles only to miraculously 'find' them in the 1920's after the Armistice boys had finished the chopping up of surplus Gew.98 and the like… That is to say, things can get lost - and Turkey did desperately need rifles after WW1 for her small army not the least because (as I understand it) many of the Mausers that were eventually returned to Turkey from captured stocks in Palestine, etc., were missing their bolts...

But back on topic (sort of!), all the evidence there is points to the 'Turked' German and British bayonets, like this example, having been shortened in the 1930’s, that is to say, either just before or around the time the ASFA factory started to produce their Mauser's and the short length bayonets to go with them for the Turkish army. The evidence is very slight: but ALL of the photographs I have seen of Turkish soldiers with bayonets affixed that can be dated before the 1930’s (these two shown are 1927 and 1929 respectively) show them with long bayonets (usually the S.98/05);

However, later ones (1930’s and 1940’s) show soldiers with short bayonets - Ersatz and all. That aside, as far as I understand, it was in or around 1935, which was when ASFA became operational, that the decision was also made to convert Turkish-’owned’ SMLE’s to become the ‘Enfauser’ – the dates on these conversions that I know of are usually 1936 or 1937 – and so that could / should be ‘right’ period for those P.1907’s with the changed crossguards.

This all leads eventually back to this bayonet here! It is an Australian-marked EFD 09/11, and so it could well have been one of a batch sent to Australia just before 1914 (see the discussion: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225837&hl= posts 19 and 20). And somehow it made its way to Turkey to be shortened most probably in the 1930’s, but for some reason retained its original crossguard rather than being given a new one, which suggests to me that it was shortened before ASFA really got going. I can see that during WW2 GB may have given Turkey SMLE’s and bayonets (but ones with Australian markings?), and I can likewise see that the Germans could have donated some to Turkey (with Australian markings) after Greece and Crete were captured (but clearly not as late as February 1945!). But I find it difficult to see how an Australian marked bayonet that could only fit a SMLE could have got to Turkey between 1945-1952, although Turkey did receive some No.4 rifles and bayonets.

So, in sum, accepting that we’ll never know for certain, on balance, I would say this is slightly more likely to be a Gallipoli capture rather than a post WW1 donation – but that is only my ‘umble opinion!

Best wishes (if you are still awake!),

Julian

[trajan]

Michael, on P.1907 supply to Australia, especially by EFD in 1911, there is a useful post at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=179457&page=3#entry2202540. This was from Shipping Steel, who wrote:

"I have researched these markings over several years from a number of sources and have built up a spreadsheet which shows the distributions and timelines of all the early Aussie bayonets. The first Australian used P1907's of 1909 vintage were made by Wilkinson and Sanderson, while in my records Enfield did not supply any to Australia until 1911. I do have examples of these. The State or Military District markings began to be applied shortly before WW1 when all the earlier bayonets were marked as well. They then continued this process right through to post war. The first method of marking was to use the State initial together with a serial number, but by 1914 all the markings were using the MD format and were pushing the serials into the 5 digit range."

I have not had a chance to check, but the serial number on the one in the first post - Australian or Turkish?

Trajan

[MRDK1]

Hi,

The 02/45 made one I have seen images of were from Dennis Ottobre's collection. Apparently modified to 1935 standard.

From memory Australia did supply 40.000 rifles to GB after the withdrawal from France.

I think we all can agree that every thing is possible.

Turkey might have been acquired these bayonets in several batches.

My point is just that looking on these bayonets you can prove that not all of them came from WW! or from Germany in WW2.

Some of them must have arrived after WW. 2. They might have seen them as a cheap way to fill up war reserve.

Denmark had tons of WW2 stuff in war reserve until the early 1990's.

Another point is that GB produced these bayonets as late a 1945 so why would they let them slip away. They were not obsolescent equipment.

I am sure that the Turkish National Archives that must be located in Ankara have the answer hidden in file.

Cheers

Michael

[trajan]

Hi,

The 02/45 made one I have seen images of were from Dennis Ottobre's collection. Apparently modified to 1935 standard. ... From memory Australia did supply 40.000 rifles to GB after the withdrawal from France. ... I think we all can agree that every thing is possible. ... T0urkey might have been acquired these bayonets in several batches.

My point is just that looking on these bayonets you can prove that not all of them came from WW! or from Germany in WW2. ... Some of them must have arrived after WW. 2. They might have seen them as a cheap way to fill up war reserve.

Denmark had tons of WW2 stuff in war reserve until the early 1990's.

Another point is that GB produced these bayonets as late a 1945 so why would they let them slip away. They were not obsolescent equipment.

I am sure that the Turkish National Archives that must be located in Ankara have the answer hidden in file.

Cheers

Michael

Thanks Michael,

Must say, though, I find it a bit odd if Australia was supplying rifles to the UK! But, as you say, anything is possible...

And your comments encouraged me to spend a few minutes on the GBForum to see if there was anything there on the Enfauser's and GB supplying material to Turkey between the wars... There were a couple of interesting posts at: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?28523-Turkish-liberated-SMLE-3-8X57-convertionsOf course, anecdotal only - nothing substantive except personal opinion... E.g., Post 6 refers to anecdotal evidence of Turkey buying 'Enfields' in 1928 from GB; post 10 states that " The majority of 1936 ASFA conversions are those built from MLE and CLLE ( Charger Loading Lee Enfield)...most of the British troops at Gallipoli had CLLE, rather than SMLE.---the Aussies had SMLE Mark I (ALH) and Mark III," and also mentions possible purchases of SMLE's and acquired leftovers from the Allied Commission in the 1920's. [same post also states that: "... Turkey had relationships with Steyr pre-WW I ( conversion of M74 Peabodies to 7,65 Mauser was done by or with Steyr made barrels and sights--M74/12 Conversion)" which was of interest to me as I knew '1874's were in use during the GW, but not being a rifle chappy did not know about this conversion!].

The only other thing that thread adds which is of relevance to this specific topic (supply of SMLE's and P.1907 bayonets to Turkey) is the mention of a couple of Turked P.1907's, one a Vickers with '22 and '32 dates (and pommel marked "OTC/MON" - so I guess that is Monmouth School Officer Training Corps!); the other a Sanderson 08/17 also with 22 and 32 dates...

Best,

Julian

[trajan]

The 02/45 made one I have seen images of were from Dennis Ottobre's collection. Apparently modified to 1935 standard.

Couldn't find this one yesterday - off-topic in a sense but related to the 'Turking' of WW1 bayonets - Australian P.1907's and others! This photograph is from the Dersim rebellion, of 1936-1937, and shows Turkish soldiers with 'M.1935' bayonets. As I indicated above, I believe that the 'shortening' of long bayonets episode begins around 1935, not (much?) before, but could of course have continued into and post WW2. I can't find my copy of Otto's CD, so I'll have to check back on the office computer to find that one - unless you have it?

Trajan

[trajan]

Cross-reference - see:http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=228442#entry2277586 for a very nice Mk2 1911 Enfield scabbard with D-small-arrow marking and a locket marking 'SA 5544'.

[trajan]

Go to: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225837&page=2#entry2302204, post no. 46, for a newly posted HQ with a Victoria marking on the crossguard...

[trajan]

From the number of certain or probable or possible Australian HQ P.1907's that keep turning up over here I sometimes think that the lads must have left a whole bunch behind at a certain battlefield...

Anyway, this is but one marking from a HQ P/1907 with other markings suggesting Australian use that I submit as a Christmas present for SS to comment on... And when we get the answer to that one then I'll show the other markings - including the very interesting ones on the scabbard!

[trajan]

Perhaps another teaser is needed to get our mate SS warmed up...

[trajan]

Here are the last two photographs relevant to this bayonet - for SS to comment on, or anyone else for that matter! It is owned by a Turkish collector who requested my opinion...

Broadly speaking, it is a SOS pommel-marked SANDERSON 01/11 P.1907, which made me think Australian, but with a cross-guard marking 10199, which I suspect is Turkish (this is why I thought SS would rush to the challenge!). The scabbard is LITHGOW, obviously, with an 'A' in a star mark, which is, I understand, the inspection mark used from 1913 to the 1920's, but I can't work out the year. The locket marking looks to be "2 MD 29928" - but I would not swear to that 'MD' part which is why I'd be happy to have a comment on that!

Trajan

[trajan]

SS, I tried to e-mail you on this one as I (and I think others!) would like your opinion on this crossguard marking, but your mailbox is closed... Hope the fires have not got to you! Anyway, it's certainly not a Victoria marking - I have one of those!

Also, SS - and in general - I was wondering about that quillon... I don't have a large collection of HQ's, but the three Sanderson HQ's I do possess (all of them 1909's!) have a blunt-ended quillon, not a rounded one like this... I was hoping that you or somebody else might pick up on that and advise - it's not mine and I don't claim any expertise in these things, and so any blunt and forceful replies are quite acceptable!

TTFN,

Trajan

[trajan]

A nice NSW marked EFD HQ, 10 (19)12 is shown at: http://www.bayonetconnection.com/british-commonwealth-c-68/australian-p1907-with-hook-ws-p-2951.html No connection to the seller! But I show here - from that site, for reference and record - the crucial markings. Note the SOS mark on the ricasso - I had one like that which is displayed somewhere - probably in SS's now locked original Australian Bayonets thread!

[trajan]

I don't know, why seeing as I don't collect them specifically, but (relatively) cheap HQ 1907's keep finding their way to me: this is number 7 and my first ozzie one - I have a NZ example (dare I say that as Turkish 'finds' perhaps both Gallipoli relics????!!!). So, needs a clean up, but 'NSW / 2289' on the right pommel, and the usual SOS mark on the left. A Sanderson '9 09' as many of these seem to be. 

Edited 23 November , 2019 by trajan

[Dave66]

A very honest example to find Julian, and if that’s number 7 that’s found it’s way to you I’m exceptionally jealous 😀.

Im sure sympathetic cleaning will improve it no end, but I just love it’s sleepy condition and possible Gallipoli connection.

Any scabbard with it?

 

Dave.

[trajan]

1 minute ago, Dave66 said:

A very honest example to find Julian, and if that’s number 7 that’s found it’s way to you I’m exceptionally jealous 😀.

Im sure sympathetic cleaning will improve it no end, but I just love it’s sleepy condition and possible Gallipoli connection.

Any scabbard with it?

 

Dave.

 

Thanks! I do tend to leave the patina on but there is some rust in the fuller that needs dealing with. It came without a scabbard but fortunately I have three teardop ones bought as spares some years ago when I WAS collecting P.1907's, and it fits nicely! All my HQ's are unit-marked and that, the ozzie connection, and the price won me over to this one (a secret pre-'seasonal' present to myself!)

[msdt]

I love it Julian, a great find. These days I hardly clean a thing, I just leave all its history on it. I still do not have a single HQ 1907, just too expensive in the UK.

Cheers,

Tony

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

 

Thanks! I do tend to leave the patina on but there is some rust in the fuller that needs dealing with. It came without a scabbard but fortunately I have three teardop ones bought as spares some years ago when I WAS collecting P.1907's, and it fits nicely! All my HQ's are unit-marked and that, the ozzie connection, and the price won me over to this one (a secret pre-'seasonal' present to myself!)

Conservation as opposed to restoration is the key with this one, and a worthwhile reward whatever the season.

 

Dave.

[JMB1943]

Trajan,

 

Nice one that has certainly been through the wars, one way or another.

Hope that you can show us a photo or two after the tidy up.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

[Guest]

Help required to identify this Bayonet I found while cleaning out the uncle house after his passing.

 

 

Edited 8 November , 2019 by Guest
poor photo

[peregrinvs]

Australian manufactured 1907 Pattern bayonet made at the Lithgow small arms factory in December 1920.

[JMB1943]

Scooter,

 

Welcome to the GWF.

 

If the scabbard has only the single seam shown in the photo, then the locket (metal throat with stud for the frog) has been off at some 

time and re-attached back to front.

If the scabbard has a second seam running down the other side, then it is VERY rare and highly desirable!

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[Guest]

Hi JMB, The Seam is running down both sides of the Scabbard.

re: Sam

[trajan]

On 08/11/2019 at 14:21, trajan said:

I don't know, why seeing as I don't collect them specifically, but (relatively) cheap HQ 1907's keep finding their way to me: this is number 7 and my first ozzie one - I have a NZ example (dare I say that as Turkish 'finds' perhaps both Gallipoli relics????!!!). So, needs a clean up, but 'NSW / 2289' on the right pommel, and the usual SOS mark on the left. A Sanderson '9 09' as many of these seem to be. 

 

 

 

On 08/11/2019 at 15:01, trajan said:

 

Thanks! I do tend to leave the patina on but there is some rust in the fuller that needs dealing with. It came without a scabbard but fortunately I have three teardop ones bought as spares some years ago when I WAS collecting P.1907's, and it fits nicely! All my HQ's are unit-marked and that, the ozzie connection, and the price won me over to this one (a secret pre-'seasonal' present to myself!)

 

On 08/11/2019 at 18:44, JMB1943 said:

Hope that you can show us a photo or two after the tidy up.

 

 

Not had a chance to tidy it up yet but here are two photographs of its condition. The scabbard is a spare one I had lying around just in case something interesting in the way of P.1907's turned up. I could really do with a month just to tidy up not just this one but the others - and my knife collection from travels in Arab lands and North Africa!

 

Weight is 477 gr., JMB.