Pte Robert Fraser - Cameron Highlanders Service No 7714

[Carol Stewart]

Good afternoon.

I have been researching a soldier who was a cousin of my late grandfather. I have found out a fair amount about him and have been lucky enough to have been given some excellent information in the form of a newspaper clipping in which he is reported as missing since 25 September 1915. The clipping also includes a photograph of him (in "mufti") and some background information which was previously unknown to me. However, this has throw up some potentially conflicting information regarding his battalion.

According to the newspaper clipping, an index entry for the Loos memorial AND an entry for him in the UK Army Register of Solders' Effects, he served with the 5th Battalion.

However, and also according to the clipping, he was already in the army prior to the start of the war and it states that he served in both India and China. When the war began, his battalion was ordered to France from India.

As the 5th Battalion was not in existence until August 1914, his prior service seems to have been with the 2nd Battalion, which was, as I said before, in India and did not arrive in France until December 1914.

What I have been unable to ascertain is whether he was transferred from the 2nd Bttn to the 5th Bttn and if this is the case, why? The 2nd Bttn did not cease to exist but was in action elsewhere, including Salonika.

According to the medal roll, the date upon which he served in his first theatre of war was 19/12/14 in France, so that could not have been with the 5th Battalion, as they did not arrive in France until May 1915. I can find no reason why he would be transferred other than the fact that the expeditionary force which was sent to Salonika was apparently relatively small so perhaps the battalion was split and he was one of those absorbed into the 5th (Service) Battalion.

Is this the most likely explanation or is there something significant that I am overlooking?

Also, I have seen that his Service No has been presented in two different ways on differing documents. Sometimes it is shown as 77/14 and sometimes simply as 7714. Is there some formula for these numbers and is there any significance to the way numbers are issued or the number of digits?

Thanks in advance for any guidance or information which anyone can offer.

EDITED - to correct error in Service Number

Edited 23 April , 2015 by Carol Stewart

[Coldstreamer]

have you looked at medal rolls pre ww1 - medals where awarded for India and China which should reveal a Btn if he was awarded anything

[Carol Stewart]

have you looked at medal rolls pre ww1 - medals where awarded for India and China which should reveal a Btn if he was awarded anything

Thanks for your suggestion.

I have had a look on Ancestry but haven't found anything for him other than the medals awarded for WW1. Is there another resource available to check?

[Ron Abbott]

Assuming it is the same man, he is recorded in the Register of Soldiers Effects as 7714 and not as 7114. I have no knowledge or experience in deciphering these things but 'Perth' and a date of 15 Sep 1915 is mentioned and it is recorded that he had a brother called Henry or Hendry and a sister called Henrietta.

Based on his service number it would appear that he joined in either late 1906 or very early 1907.

Medals Roll Index also records service number 7714. Victory, British War & Star and mentions date of entry (France) as 19 Dec 1914 and 'presumed dead' 26 Sep 1915.

Service Medal and award Rolls records that he served with the 2nd Bn. Camerons, however the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records 5th Bn. Camerons, the 'brother of GH Fraser of son of 54 Bernard Street, Leith'.

So at some point of time between December 1914 and Sep 1915 he may have been transferred from the 2nd to the 5th if the record of the CWGC is correct..

The 2nd Bn had been in India but returned to the UK in Nov 1914 and moved to France in Dec 1914 and then to Salonika in Dec 1915..

In 1915, 2nd Bn. involved at Ypres and 5th at Loos. Give that he is recorded on the Loos Memorial, it would appear that he was transferred. Maybe one of the members with knowledge of matters pertaining to the Camerons could assist.

[Loader]

Could he have been wounded or sick with the 2/Bn then on recovery sent to the 5th Bn? This happened a lot in the war & men not always sent to same regt either.

[Carol Stewart]

Assuming it is the same man, he is recorded in the Register of Soldiers Effects as 7714 and not as 7114. I have no knowledge or experience in deciphering these things but 'Perth' and a date of 15 Sep 1915 is mentioned and it is recorded that he had a brother called Henry or Hendry and a sister called Henrietta.

Based on his service number it would appear that he joined in either late 1906 or very early 1907.

Medals Roll Index also records service number 7714. Victory, British War & Star and mentions date of entry (France) as 19 Dec 1914 and 'presumed dead' 26 Sep 1915.

Service Medal and award Rolls records that he served with the 2nd Bn. Camerons, however the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records 5th Bn. Camerons, the 'brother of GH Fraser of son of 54 Bernard Street, Leith'.

So at some point of time between December 1914 and Sep 1915 he may have been transferred from the 2nd to the 5th if the record of the CWGC is correct..

The 2nd Bn had been in India but returned to the UK in Nov 1914 and moved to France in Dec 1914 and then to Salonika in Dec 1915..

In 1915, 2nd Bn. involved at Ypres and 5th at Loos. Give that he is recorded on the Loos Memorial, it would appear that he was transferred. Maybe one of the members with knowledge of matters pertaining to the Camerons could assist.

Sorry Ron - that was my error with his Service Number. It certainly is 7714 (not 7114) - although I have seen it recorded with the forward-slash between the 2nd and 3rd digits.

I already have the information taken from the Register of Soldiers' Effects and the Medal Roll Index and that is what helped to confirm that he was the man in question. In doing all my searching, I have read up on the movements of the 2nd AND 5th Battalions, which is why I thought that something didn't quite tally.

I am very interested in the bit in bold in your reply - about his number indicating the likely year of his enrollment. Is there any source you know of where I might be able to check that out?

Actually, I think both you and loader (quoted below) have perhaps solved the mystery. The local newspaper article I have (from November 1915), in which he was described as "missing" explains that he had been injured previously and invalided back to Britain. He then returned to France so perhaps your theories are correct after all. Perhaps he was re-deployed to the 5th Battalion after he recovered, rather than re-joining the 2nd.

Could he have been wounded or sick with the 2/Bn then on recovery sent to the 5th Bn? This happened a lot in the war & men not always sent to same regt either.

[Ron Abbott]

Hi Carol,

Although they may say they can't research individual soldiers, the regimental museums often do have some information.

The Highlanders Museum at Fort George may be able to assist if you go to their website.

http://www.thehighlandersmuseum.com/historical-research/

I have recently contacted the Highlanders Museum with an inquiry relating to one of my ancestors who served in the Seaforths.

The Gordon Highlanders museum was certainly very helpful with regard to one of my ancestors who served in that regiment and although I wasn't expecting much they were able to tell me about battalions that my ancestor had previously served in before his death and where he had served in the 'Victorian era'.

I think the Highlanders Museum (for the Camerons) have an initial charge or donation of 10 GBP which can be paid online via paypal.

This will also give you a rough idea as to when he likely joined :-

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.hk/2012/12/queens-own-cameron-highlanders.html

Hope that is of some help.

I'm a complete and utter amateur at this sort of thing, so perhaps someone on these forums who has far more knowledge might be able to assist you better than I can.

[Rob Bulloch]

Carol Private Robert Fraser is listed on the Honour roll of the 5th battalion Cameron Highlanders as 77114. 25th Sept 1915.

Aye Rob.

[Carol Stewart]

Hi Carol,

Although they may say they can't research individual soldiers, the regimental museums often do have some information.

The Highlanders Museum at Fort George may be able to assist if you go to their website.

http://www.thehighlandersmuseum.com/historical-research/

I have recently contacted the Highlanders Museum with an inquiry relating to one of my ancestors who served in the Seaforths.

The Gordon Highlanders museum was certainly very helpful with regard to one of my ancestors who served in that regiment and although I wasn't expecting much they were able to tell me about battalions that my ancestor had previously served in before his death and where he had served in the 'Victorian era'.

I think the Highlanders Museum (for the Camerons) have an initial charge or donation of 10 GBP which can be paid online via paypal.

This will also give you a rough idea as to when he likely joined :-

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.hk/2012/12/queens-own-cameron-highlanders.html

Hope that is of some help.

I'm a complete and utter amateur at this sort of thing, so perhaps someone on these forums who has far more knowledge might be able to assist you better than I can.

Thanks, Ron.

Those look like very useful links. I shall take a closer look.

Carol Private Robert Fraser is listed on the Honour roll of the 5th battalion Cameron Highlanders as 77114. 25th Sept 1915.

Aye Rob.

Thank you, Rob. I am pretty sure now that his number is 7714 (or 77/14).

Perhaps when creating the Honour Roll, they thought that the forward slash was another number one.

[rolt968]

The Daily Casualty Lists are interesting:

Daily List 1 October 1915. Pte R Fraser 7714, 2 Cameron Highlanders - wounded.

Daily List 20 November 1915 (Reported 10 November 1915) Pte R Fraser R/7714, 5 Cameron Highlanders - missing.

(both transcripts from the Genealogist)

He was wounded in 2 CH and then returned to 5 CH.

I'm a little suspicious of the first date and wonder if it is transcribed correctly.

RM

[Carol Stewart]

The Daily Casualty Lists are interesting:

Daily List 1 October 1915. Pte R Fraser 7714, 2 Cameron Highlanders - wounded.

Daily List 20 November 1915 (Reported 10 November 1915) Pte R Fraser R/7714, 5 Cameron Highlanders - missing.

(both transcripts from the Genealogist)

He was wounded in 2 CH and then returned to 5 CH.

I'm a little suspicious of the first date and wonder if it is transcribed correctly.

RM

Thank you. Yes, that is a little odd, isn't it? But it is interesting nonetheless. Do you mind me asking - is "The Genealogist" the name of a website - and would that be available for me to view also?

[rolt968]

The Genealogist is a pay site:

http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/

Some of its casualty list entries are transcript only while others give access to the original document. The original page won't give any more information, but you can check for transcription errors. Both Robert Fraser's entries are transcription only. (Actually there are three but one is a duplicate.)

The dates I have found could work, bearing in mind that they are the dates of the published lists and reports not the actual event and that the time lag between event and list/report can vary, but I would have been happier to see the originals

RM

[Carol Stewart]

The Genealogist is a pay site:

http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/

Some of its casualty list entries are transcript only while others give access to the original document. The original page won't give any more information, but you can check for transcription errors. Both Robert Fraser's entries are transcription only. (Actually there are three but one is a duplicate.)

The dates I have found could work, bearing in mind that they are the dates of the published lists and reports not the actual event and that the time lag between event and list/report can vary, but I would have been happier to see the originals

RM

I do apologise - I thought I had replied to this post earlier but my browser crashed as I submitted my reply so it apparently didn't post it after all.

I agree - that they are likely to have been when the reports were published and not necessarily the dates of the events being reported. I think that would make sense and corresponds with the information in the newspaper clipping which I have.

Thanks again for looking at this for me - I appreciate it.

[Guest]

 Hi Carol. Robert Fraser is my grand uncle. His sister,was my grandmother. I have a photograph of him , when he was serving in India, in about 1912.