Pte Cyril Butterworth 66560 and 1681 Cheshire Regiment

[researchingreg]

I am trying to research this soldier who entered France with the Cheshire Regiment on 14 Feb 1915, as I can only find his Medal Rolls and Indexes how do I go about finding what Battalion he was in so I can look at the War Diaries. I cannot find his Pension or Army Service record on Ancestry. I also have a picture of him with a Lance Corporals Stripe, but he is described as a Pte in the medal info. I also have a picture of him with a group of other soldiers standing in water with their trousers rolled up.

He was born in 1895 in Sandbach Cheshire. Can anybody point me in the right direction to continue research?

[Medaler]

Hi,

A look at the medal roll for BWM and Vic gives his details as "5 Cheshire". As LLT gives their landing date as 15th Feb 1915, this marks him out as 1st/5th. To back this, it seems that 2nd/5th and 3rd/5th never served overseas, and would have done so at a much later date if they had.

I note from his other medal roll entry that he was discharged 6th August 1917, but has no SWB roll entry that I could see.

Seems odd that his other number (66560) is only 5 digits rather than 6. That may demand a bit more investigation, or an expert on Cheshire Terriers.

Hope that has helped,

Mike

[researchingreg]

Medaler

Thanks for the information . I will see if I can find the War Diaries for the 1/5th Cheshires.

[Coldstreamer]

Discharged with no swb could mean he was time expired. Was he a pre war soldier ?

[kenf48]

He joined the 5th Bn Cheshire on or around the 4th November 1912. See record Ralph Rathbone 1672/Albert Cain 1683.

Rathbone was discharged to civil employment significantly Butterworth is also shown as discharged on the 1915 Roll unlike comrades who were 'disembodied'. We don't know why he was discharged. He would have had a six digit number on discharge (cf Rathbone).

Given his age he became liable for conscription in April 1918 when there was a desperate need for men following the. German Spring Offensive. The BWM and VM Rolls show 1 Cheshire Infantry Base Depot. The five digit number was allocated when he was conscripted under the terms of the MSA (as amended) on or around 15th April 1918. As the four digit number would be imprinted on his medals and the five digit number was his last number then there was no administrative need to show this number on the medal roll.

Ken

[researchingreg]

He joined the 5th Bn Cheshire on or around the 4th November 1912. See record Ralph Rathbone 1672/Albert Cain 1683.

Rathbone was discharged to civil employment significantly Butterworth is also shown as discharged on the 1915 Roll unlike comrades who were 'disembodied'. We don't know why he was discharged. He would have had a six digit number on discharge (cf Rathbone).

Given his age he became liable for conscription in April 1918 when there was a desperate need for men following the. German Spring Offensive. The BWM and VM Rolls show 1 Cheshire Infantry Base Depot. The five digit number was allocated when he was conscripted under the terms of the MSA (as amended) on or around 15th April 1918. As the four digit number would be imprinted on his medals and the five digit number was his last number then there was no administrative need to show this number on the medal roll.

Ken

Ken have you found his record or assumed he joined around the same time as Ralph Rathbone who had a service number near to his? Was he a TF soldier?

Also are you saying he was discharged 6 Aug 1917 and then recalled up in April 1918? Why no SWB?, just the victory medal. It seems he did serve in France. However November 1912 would be an appropriate date for him to join up, as he was 17 in Nov 1912.

Also if he was re-called up it may explain the picture of him with a Lance Corporals Stripe as he was a private on his discharge in 1917. I suppose he would have no further medal for subsequent service if he did not go to France.

I cannot find the War Diaries for the 1/5th Cheshires on Ancestry as well. So it seems I can't find much more out.

[kenf48]

Ken have you found his record or assumed he joined around the same time as Ralph Rathbone who had a service number near to his? Was he a TF soldier?

Also are you saying he was discharged 6 Aug 1917 and then recalled up in April 1918? Why no SWB?, just the victory medal. It seems he did serve in France. However November 1912 would be an appropriate date for him to join up, as he was 17 in Nov 1912.

Also if he was re-called up it may explain the picture of him with a Lance Corporals Stripe as he was a private on his discharge in 1917. I suppose he would have no further medal for subsequent service if he did not go to France.

I cannot find the War Diaries for the 1/5th Cheshires on Ancestry as well. So it seems I can't find much more out.

He was a TF soldier, and no I've not found his record but it's a bit more than an assumption although acknowledging the study of service numbers is more an art than an exact science, my previous post was based on the following evidence:-

Pte 1672 Ralph Rathbone's record shows he enlisted on the 4th November 1912. Rathbone was an employee of the chemical company Brunner Mond and Co,. as was Pte 1683 Albert Cain. Rathbone's surviving records are especially informative and accepting it's difficult to do a direct extrapolation with PTE 1681 Butterworths service there are many similarities.

Rathbone signed the Imperial Service Obligation on the 14th September 1914 in Northampton, I suspect with the rest of his comrades who agreed to serve overseas, it was usual to hold a parade as the TF Battalions prepared for war.

He went to France the same date as Pte Butterworth and the main body of the 1/5th on the 14th February 1915. Rathbone was wounded on the 9th July 1915 when I believe the Battalion was serving in the Ypres Salient. At this point their service may or may not diverge, Pte Rathbone was repatriated to the UK and eventually posted to 3/5 Bn and released for civil employment at the chemical works; see Class P(T) Reserve http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm

He was subsequently discharged under the Army Orders cited above and mentioned in the LLT article. His reason for discharge was Para 392 (xxi) K.R. i.e. 'the termination of his___ period of engagement' (as previously noted above, although he was wounded this reason for discharge was specifically excluded from the award of the SWB.) Incidentally, Butterworth was unlikely to have been a pre-war Regular as they were numbering up to 10002 in November 1912 see http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/cheshire-regiment-1881-1914-1st-2nd.html

The last document in Rathbone's record is stamped 'DISCHARGED' then underneath in manuscript is written 'Liable for further service under the Military Service Act 1916' and I think this is where their records converge again. However it appears Rathbone wasn't called up again (his six digit TF number is shown on the mic as his last number) and he probably secured a deferral or exemption from the Local Tribunal, unlike Butterworth who was conscripted and it appears posted to an active service Battalion.

Albert Cain's record is not so informative however there are parallels. He was number 1683 and was also an employee of Brunner Mond and Co. and enlisted on the 4th November 1912.

Local newspapers describe 'recruitment marches' by the Cheshire County Assocaition which included visiting local industrial sites to literally drum up support for the TF. The entire machine gun section was recruited from a single engineering company. By the by the Band Sgt of the 5th Cheshires was also named Butterworth - a common name, a coincidence or a relative?

As Cain also enlisted the same date as Rattbone and their numbers bracket your Pte Butterworth I'd suggest this was a recruitment drive at Brunner Mond & Co.

What was your mans occupation? Did he work for this company and is there a R of H? Companies were proud of their workers serving and there was often correspondence concerning their doings and thanks for comforts. Does it survive? The local record office in Sussex for example has the correspondence for the Shipphams Paste factory.

Pte Cain attended the same summer camps as Rathbone (and presumably your man) but was discharged on the 5th August 1914, i.e. the day after war was declared and the Battalion was embodied.

Brunner Mond incidentally erected a splendid company memorial though you would need a denizen of Cheshire to locate it for you.http://en.tracesofwar.com/article/18957/War-Memorial-Brunner-Mond-and-Co.htm

Im not saying Pte Butterworth was discharged on 6 August 1917 this is clearly shown in the records as his official date of discharge from the TF while the Battalion was still embodied. If he was discharged under the same provision as Pte Rathbone. i.e. time served, he would not be entitled to a SWB.

The service numbers in the series 6656* were issued in April 1918, it's not clear whether he went back to France (the three other men on the same page of the BWM VM Roll show 1st Bn Ches R and Infantry Base Depot he doesnt have 1st Bn alongside his name just Ches Regt but if he did it would make sense as the Battalion was being hurriedly rushed back to the Western Front from Italy. Browsing the Roll backwards and forwards all the men round him went to the 1st Bn. I have their war diary but it doesn't include this period. Most other men conscripted at this time where their record survives were older and moved on to the Labour Corps or ASC.

However as noted above in Rathbone's record and my previous post although previously discharged from the TF he was liable for service under the MSA.

As shown on the medal card posted above he was awarded the 1914-15 Star British War Medal and Victory Medal. The card also clearly shows he went to France on the same date as the main body of the 1/5th Cheshire Regiment. As for his Lance Corporal's stripe this was an appointment, not a substantive rank and again like Rathbone it could be taken away just as easily as given. The medals only record 'the highest rank attained provided it was held in a theatre of war prior to 11.11.1918'. So did he serve as a L/Cpl in France?

Dont know about Ancestry still cant get my head round their indexing but you can still download the 5th Bn war diary from TNA for £3.30

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352268

Its in two parts and the second part refers to their service as Pioneers from December 1915 to the end of the war

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354918

Ken

[researchingreg]

Thanks for all your effort Ken

This is all most informative. I will try and get 5th Battalion War Diary. I have seen on line a diary by a private soldier in the 1/5th Pioneer battalion for part of 1916 and I assume Pte Cyril Butterworth would have more or less the same movements as him, which included quite a lot of action.

[Medaler]

Hi Ken,

I must admit, I wanted to ask about post #5, but as this is not my thread, I did not want to seem pushy. I am hugely impressed by your added info in post #7, which has provided a huge amount of background. Again, this is not my enquiry, but having contributed a tiny bit, I had become more curious.

Superb research Ken, and I really do congratulate you on it.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[kenf48]

Thank you both for your comments, discharged from hospital this morning after a nasty little op yesterday, as ever GWF and thinking about what they went through provides a diversion.

Incidentally if he was posted to the 1st Bn in 1918 he saw a great deal of action see 5th Division on LLT as a taster.

Ken