Sgt A E Gregory (2525) 2 Bn Rifle Brigade

[torchy]

I'm looking for help regarding my great, great uncle, Albert Edward Gregory who was serving with 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade in May 1915 when he died of wounds. I have copies of war diaries and his military service records but have found some anomalies regarding the date and location of his death. I wondered if any Rifle Brigade experts could help me out.

On 9^th May 1915 the 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade was involved in the battle of Aubers Ridge. It seems likely that Albert would have been involved in this battle.

Albert’s service records show that he died of wounds on 26^th May 1915 and he is now buried in the Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery at Souchez. His Battalion’s war diary does record that on 26^th May 1915 two men were killed by British field guns and one man was killed by rifle fire.

Some of the original Commonwealth War Graves Commission records suggest that Albert died on 9^th May 1915, the date of the Battle of Aubers Ridge. The date of death was later changed to 26th May 1915. This change appears to have been made after Albert’s body was recovered as an unknown British Soldier from its original burial site. Another discrepancy suggests that Albert was killed at Hill 60. This does not appear to be the location where the 2^nd Battalion were fighting. You could perhaps conclude that Albert was either one of those killed on 26^th May or was perhaps wounded on 9^th May 1915 and later died of his wounds on 26th May.

I would be grateful for any help or explanations that anyone could offer as to what happened to Albert.

John

[roughdiamond]

If you look at the Concentration form on CWGC, the other 8 men listed by name are all from the same Bde of the same Div as him 25th Bde, 8th Div.All 9 have the same date of Death on that form but Rfn McGarry 2nd Rif Bde and Pte Molloy 2nd East Lincs have had their date of Death changed to the same date as L/Sgt Gregory .

On page 1 of the Concentration form are the other 11 men from the same trench grave, 4 are named and listed as Died the same date as the 9 on page 2 "09.5.15" and all but 1 (Rfn Copestake 9th Londons) are 25th Bde, 8th Div.

Pte Muckleston 2nd Lincolns and Pte Hutchinson 13th Londons who's names were changed on the 2nd page to "UBS" (Unidentified British Soldier) are on this page along with Rfn Youngman 2nd Rif Bde. His date of Death had also been changed to "26.5.15" the same as L/Sgt Gregory.

What this suggests is that as all were buried together, they were initially shown as the wrong date of Death in error, what it does show for certain is that 3 x men of the 2nd Rif Bde "2525 L/Sgt Gregory, Z/20 Rfn McGarry and 2639 Rfn Youngman" Died on the date you noted on the Bn War Diary and were buried together which seems quite compelling, however.........

Recorded as died the same date 26/05/15 are 2 other men of the 2nd Rif Bde, "Z/1801 Rfn Morley J and S/7566 Rfn Collings GL" both initially buried "Rue du Bacquerot (Winchester Post) Cemetery" then re-intered at "Aubers Ridge Cemetery".

So of those 5, 3 were killed the same day according to the Bn War Diary and the other 2 presumably Died of wounds, worth checking SDGW and their Medal Cards to see what they say and if you can work out who is who.

Edited to add: - Just noticed on the same "Concentration form" as Rfn Collings is "S/8093 Rfn Richards T, 2nd Bn Rif Bde" interestingly his CWGC entry states "Died 25.5.15", however on 2 seperate pages of the "Concentration form" and the typed page of the "Grave Registration" his date of Death is listed as "26.5.15", only the printed version of the "Grave Registration" and the "Headstone form" have him as 25th, could the 3 be Morley, Collins and Richards?

Sam

[clk]

... could the 3 be Morley, Collins and Richards?

Sam

I think that Sam is right.

Soldiers' Effects http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=UKArmyRegistersEffects&gss=sfs28_ms_r_db&new=1&rank=1&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&msddd=26&msddd_x=1&msddm=5&msddm_x=1&msddy=1915&msddy_x=1&_F00061C3=rifle%20brigade&_F00061C3_x=1&MSAV=1&uidh=rc2 gives 2nd Battalion deaths on 26th May 1915 as:

87566 George Langworthy Collins - "In action"

2525 Albert Edward Gregory - "Wounds rec'd in action"

Z20 John McGarry - "Germany P of War"

Z1801 John Morley - "In action"

S8093 Thomas Richards - "In action"

2639 Phillip Youngman - "Wounds"

Regards

Chris

[torchy]

Hi Chris/Sam

I am very grateful for your help and explanations. Plenty more for me to have a look out. I shall also research those who died and were buried around the same time as it does seem likely they may be the friends he died alongside.

I have to say having never known Albert it surprises me how emotional I get the more I found out about him.

Do either of you know how they would have identified the bodies. I am guessing there must a reference document produced at the time of the original burial but how did someone go from being UBS to being named. The CWGC references only talk about uniforms and buttons/insignia on clothing. Will the soldiers have actually been identified by ID Discs/Documents or will it have simply be a process of elimination from the records?

John

[roughdiamond]

Z20 John McGarry - "Germany P of War"

Surprised at the POW ref with Rfn McGarry, all I can think is the Soldiers Effects lists were made before his Grave was found and he was re-interred in what looks like 1924 or it was a simple error.

Sam

[stiletto_33853]

Hill 60 was a misconception held by quite a few of the relatives. The 2nd RB were never there!!

Have you ever gone through The Times casualty lists???

Your relation appears on a German list of casualties for 9/5/15. I am sure that Victoria will be along soon as she has been made aware of this thread, and having lost a relation on 9/5/15 with the 2nd RB and having spent years researching the action there is no better person to answer some of your queries.

Also, if you look at the map reference his body was found at, this is across the road (Rue Delval) from the Kennedy Memorial, or about as far as the 2nd Rifle Brigade advanced.

Andy

[torchy]

Andy

Thank you.

I've never accessed The Times casualty lists. Also can I access the German records?

John

[bazunitec]

My Great Uncle George Henry Woodey was one of those killed at Aubers Ridge on 9th May 1915 and I will be there on Saturday to remember the 100th anniversary of his death. George is one of the missing and is remembered at the memorial at Ploegsteert and I also managed to get his name added to the memorial in Warrington in time for the remembrance service last November

I must thank CLK for his link above... it helped me to find another piece of written material for George which I was not aware of.... I have the usual enlistment records and medal card (I also have the medals themselves) and now thanks to the link above I have the section from the effects book. Are there any more places I should be looking for material online and arre there any decent guides available online where I might be able to download and take with me to be able to trace that fateful day 100 years on?

Thanks

[torchy]

Hi Barry

I wont be able to make the 9th as I had already planned a visit on 26th and cannot alter my time off work now.

Another member on here (Victoria) has been very helpful and is going to provide some more information on this post which may be of interest to you.

John

[torchy]

Albert's Grave in the Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery.

The graves of the other soldiers from the 2 nd Battalion who were buried with Albert.