Unusual Uniform of Scottish Officer?

[FROGSMILE]

Maybe a different approach? Where and what was this Edinburgh Social Club? Commissioned officers only....or open to the rank and file?

All I see is some plantlife behind him and the corner of a window. Do you have a date and location for the photo?

I presume it is at least d.d. to 1918 given the overseas chevrons. No medal ribbons either.

I don't have any further details Ron. It was posted as a mystery on a Royal Scots associated site that i have not linked on my phone. I will look again tomorrow. I agree it has to be early in 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

From VWF -

Possibly the Bandmaster?

We ruled out WOs earlier because we thought we would be able to see a rank badge, but the Bandmaster's badge was small and it fits with the sporran and his apparent age. Not too sure if he would be likely to have two overseas chevrons but perhaps it's possible.

More importantly I have just learned that the 71st (HLI) pipers had worn a black sporran with three white tails and had wanted the new Cardwell formed 'HLI' to wear it too. This was refused by the 74th (Highlanders) with whom they were to merge, but in defiance the 1st Bn HLI (old 71st) continued to wear the black sporran until 1886, when they were made to conform with the 2nd Bn HLI (old 74th) and change to a white sporran with three tails.

When the HLI were re-authorised to be a wholly kilted regiment in 1948, they opted to revert to the old 71st sporran of black with three white tassels. It seems to me extremely likely that the Glasgow Highlanders, a fully kilted regiment aligned with the HLI, chose at least in part (pipers and or band) to wear the black sporran of the 71st and that is what we see in the OP photo.

[gordon92]

We ruled out WOs earlier because we thought we would be able to see a rank badge, but the Bandmaster's badge was small and it fits with the sporran and his apparent age. Not too sure if he would be likely to have two overseas chevrons but perhaps it's possible.

More importantly I have just learned that the kilted 71st Highlanders had worn a black sporran with three white tails and had wanted the new Cardwell formed 'HLI' to be kilted too. This was refused by the 74th (HLI) with whom they were to merge, but in defiance the 1st Bn HLI (old 71st) continued to wear the black sporran until 1886, when they were made to conform with the 2nd Bn HLI (old 74th) and change to a white sporran with three tails.

When the HLI were re-authorised to be a wholly kilted regiment in 1948, they opted to revert to the old 71st sporran of black with three white tassels. It seems to me extremely likely that the Glasgow Highlanders, a fully kilted regiment aligned with the HLI, chose at least in part (pipers and or band) to wear the black sporran of the 71st and that is what we see in the OP photo.

See image below of 9th HLI Pipe Major dressed almost identically to that of a BW PM. The only difference is the absence of rosettes on the 9HLI kilt.

[FROGSMILE]

See image below of 9th HLI Pipe Major dressed almost identically to that of a BW PM. The only difference is the absence of rosettes on the 9HLI kilt.

Thanks Mike, cracking photo. Looks almost identical to a Black piper as you say.

I think we will never know for sure.

The kilt in the OP is certainly the pattern worn by the 1st Bn HLI (old 71st) until 1886 and then re-adopted by the HLI after they regained kilts as a regiment in 1948. With that fact and the head dress (badge etc) of the OP added I cannot think of what other unit the man can be. Can you? Is he more likely to be Black Watch, or a Canadian?

[Ron Abbott]

Thanks for posting that.....looks like a beautiful set of full silver mounted pipes!

[gordon92]

Thanks Mike, cracking photo. Looks almost identical to a Black piper as you say.

I think we will never know for sure.

The kilt in the OP is certainly the pattern worn by the 1st Bn HLI (old 71st) until 1886 and then re-adopted by the HLI after they regained kilts as a regiment in 1948. With that fact and the head dress (badge etc) of the OP added I cannot think of what other unit the man can be. Can you? Is he more likely to be Black Watch, or a Canadian?

Frogsmile, until some evidence emerges that a Canadian Bn such as the 185th CEF (Cape Breton Highlanders) was in Scotland around 1918, we cannot argue that option with any gravity. I am not opposed to your premise that it is a 9HLI man based on the cap badge. However, I think it more likely that perhaps a 2/9th HLI man back home on leave just picked up an odd sporran to fill out his kit for whatever reason (his original sporran was damaged or lost, left back in Ireland, etc.) The HLI sporran had a badge below the cantle (a miniature of the cap badge) that is not in evidence in the OP. Thus, I am inclined to conjecture that our 9HLI man obtained an Argyll sporran that looked something like the 6HLI sporran. That is my theory.

[gordon92]

Thanks for posting that.....looks like a beautiful set of full silver mounted pipes!

Ron - In a Territorial battalion such as the 9HLI, would those pipes have been a personal possession of the PM or would they have been the property of the battalion?

[Ron Abbott]

Ron - In a Territorial battalion such as the 9HLI, would those pipes have been a personal possession of the PM or would they have been the property of the battalion?

I'm not sure, however I do note that the bass stock has a shield on it. Typically this might make mention of the piper having won some significant competition or other, or it could be mention of the regiment. If they are hand-engraved and fully silver mounted, they'd certainly have cost a bob or two even back then!

When a new pipes & drums was starting up, the instruments could be purchased by the colonel or the officers or could be purchased by some group of people outside of the regiment as a donation, Some pipes would however be owned by individual soldiers as is the case today.

In the late 19th and early 20th century, a number of HLI pipers won the top piping prizes at Oban and at the Northern Meeting including P/M J MacDougall Gillies (pparently of the 1st Vol Bn HLI), P/M Donald Mathieson (recorded as 3rd HLI), P/M James Taylor, P/M Robert Reid (7th HLI) and P/M Donald Chisholm.

If the photo above of the P/M of the 9th HLI can be dated, perhaps Aad Boode could help identify him.

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile, until some evidence emerges that a Canadian Bn such as the 185th CEF (Cape Breton Highlanders) was in Scotland around 1918, we cannot argue that option with any gravity. I am not opposed to your premise that it is a 9HLI man based on the cap badge. However, I think it more likely that perhaps a 2/9th HLI man back home on leave just picked up an odd sporran to fill out his kit for whatever reason (his original sporran was damaged or lost, left back in Ireland, etc.) The HLI sporran had a badge below the cantle (a miniature of the cap badge) that is not in evidence in the OP. Thus, I am inclined to conjecture that our 9HLI man obtained an Argyll sporran that looked something like the 6HLI sporran. That is my theory.

Thanks Mike. I agree that I think we can pretty much rule the 185th CEF (Cape Breton Highlanders) out and in any case I am pretty sure I could spot their badge even in a photo that size. We know that it cannot be a Canadian Black Watch man either.

As regards your other hypotheses, I don't understand why a 9th HLI man would want to wear something that looked like a 6th HLI item of uniform?

I am aware that the post 1881 HLI sporran had a miniature HLI badge on it, having scoured the excellent little booklet about HLI dress between 1881 and 1914. What I don't know is what insignia, if any, the 71st (HLI) pipers sporran had that continued to be worn by 1st HLI until 1886. As he is not wearing collar badges either it does not seem so much of a stretch that there is no sporran badge too.

I cannot imagine a 9th HLI man, to use one of your earlier phrases - being seen dead - in an A&SH kilt, but it does not seem quite so much of a sacrilege for him to wear a sporran from a forebear of his regular parent regiment. That said, I concede that they (the 71st / 1st HLI sporrans) would have had to be maintained in remarkably good condition since 1886 to be still wearable!

[FROGSMILE]

Maybe a different approach? Where and what was this Edinburgh Social Club? Commissioned officers only....or open to the rank and file?

All I see is some plantlife behind him and the corner of a window. Do you have a date and location for the photo?

I presume it is at least d.d. to 1918 given the overseas chevrons. No medal ribbons either.

Ron, I have been able to find the details of the Edinburgh Club again and here is an extract followed by the actual link:

"A researcher is appealing for help to identify a picture of an unknown Royal Scots soldier in time for the WWI centenary. Alistair McEwan, creator of the online archive Edinburgh's War, found the solitary picture in a book of autographs collected by a teenager at the YMCA ‘American Hut’ site in Edinburgh’s Saint Andrew’s Square during the Great War.

The book belonged to Elizabeth Edgar, who would help her mother at the hut tending to visiting servicemen. The hut was a stop-off point for war-weary soldiers on their way home from duties in Europe and featured cinematography and billiards tables. Elizabeth collected autographs, sketches and poetry from servicemen, including Lance Corporal R W Brown, of the 9th Scottish Rifles, who wrote on March 8, 1917:

“What? Write in a book, Where ladies look, and critics spy? Not I, Not I.”

The photograph, found inside the book, also included a dedication to Elizabeth. McEwan said it’s possible the two knew each other – “We would be very keen to identify him as it would be nice for the family that gave me the autograph book to find out who he was.”

He said little was known about the entertainment complex which encompassed the entirety of Saint Andrew’s Square, apart from information from a news article dated March 14, 1919. Volunteers would run the tented centre, which could house up to 250 servicemen, offering a 125-seat dining room and fun and games for up to 500. The piece told of “a spacious lounge with an information bureau, a newspaper and postcard stand” and a kitchen with “the latest appliances”. There were “conveniences such as shower baths and individual lockers” and it said meals were excellent both in quality and value, costing 1s 6d for three courses, with tea, coffee, or cocoa to follow."

Here is the link: http://www.regimentsofscotland.com/2013/02/18/royal-scots-wwi-mystery/#comment-677

[Ron Abbott]

Wow.....how interesting. Thanks. Never knew that St Andrews Square was used for that purpose.

I wonder what the exact dedication was that is mentioned as having been in the book !

p.s....now know what VWF is. Have signed up and seen the thread. Thanks again.

[gordon92]

Thanks Mike. I agree that I think we can pretty much rule the 185th CEF (Cape Breton Highlanders) out and in any case I am pretty sure I could spot there badge even in a photo that size. We know that it cannot be a Canadian Black Watch man either.

As regards your other hypotheses, I don't understand why a 9th HLI man would want to wear something that looked like a 6th HLI item of uniform.

I am aware that the post 1881 HLI sporran had a miniature HLI badge on it, having scoured the excellent little booklet about HLI dress between 1881 and 1914. What I don't know is what insignia, if any, the 71st (HLI) pipers sporran had that continued to be worn by 1st HLI until 1886. As he is not wearing collar badges either it does not seem so much of a stretch that there is no sporran badge too.

I cannot imagine a 9th HLI man, to use one of your earlier phrases - being seen dead - in an A&SH kilt, but it does not seem quite so much of a sacrilege for him to wear a sporran from a forebear of his regular parent regiment. That said, I concede that they (the 71st / 1st HLI sporrans) would have had to be maintained in remarkably good condition since 1886 to be still wearable.

All the above is possible, Frogsmile. As you say I do not think we will ever figure this one out decisively.

[gordon92]

I'm not sure, however I do note that the bass stock has a shield on it. Typically this might make mention of the piper having won some significant competition or other, or it could be mention of the regiment. If they are hand-engraved and fully silver mounted, they'd certainly have cost a bob or two even back then!

When a new pipes & drums was starting up, the instruments could be purchased by the colonel or the officers or could be purchased by some group of people outside of the regiment as a donation, Some pipes would however be owned by individual soldiers as is the case today.

In the late 19th and early 20th century, a number of HLI pipers won the top piping prizes at Oban and at the Northern Meeting including P/M J MacDougall Gillies (pparently of the 1st Vol Bn HLI), P/M Donald Mathieson (recorded as 3rd HLI), P/M James Taylor, P/M Robert Reid (7th HLI) and P/M Donald Chisholm.

If the photo above of the P/M of the 9th HLI can be dated, perhaps Aad Boode could help identify him.

The date furnished with the image is 1910. Would be interested in an ID if possible.

[Ron Abbott]

Have sent a private message to Aad Aboode. He may well know who the P/M of the 9th HLI was in 1910,

[gordon92]

Have sent a private message to Aad Aboode. He may well know who the P/M of the 9th HLI was in 1910,

Thanks, Ron. Looking forward to the answer.

Mike

[aboode]

Ron,

Thomas Baillie was P/M of the 9th Bn Highland Light Infantry from 1908 to 1917.

Aad

[gordon92]

Ron,

Thomas Baillie was P/M of the 9th Bn Highland Light Infantry from 1908 to 1917.

Aad

Aad --- Would you have any further bio information on Thomas Baillie?

[aboode]

Aad --- Would you have any further bio information on Thomas Baillie?

Sorry, I do not have any additional information about P/M Baillie.

Aad

[Ron Abbott]

Aad....many thanks. I sent you an email re your book. Can you please advise?

Gordon92

P/M Thomas Baillie was the composer of the bagpipe tune, 'The Glasgow Highlanders at Cambrai'. It was published in the 'The Pipes of War', the collection of bagpipe music.

http://www.ceolsean.net/content/Pwar/Pwar_TOC.html

He is recorded in the Medals Rolls Index as Sergeant-Piper of the 9th HLI, with service number 1159 and 330035.

He is recorded on the Service Medal and Award Rolls as 'Pipe Major' of the 9th HLI with service number 330035, that he enlisted on 13 Oct 1909 and was discharged on 07 Jul 1917.

In 'The Pipes of War' (Seton) under HLI, it is recorded that Pipe Major T Baillie 330075 was discharged after 31 years service. Presumably, the digit '7' is an errror.

Anyone know whether he is mentioned in the HLI Chronicles (?)

[gordon92]

Aad....many thanks. I sent you an email re your book. Can you please advise?

Gordon92

P/M Thomas Baillie was the composer of the bagpipe tune, 'The Glasgow Highlanders at Cambrai'. It was published in the 'The Pipes of War', the collection of bagpipe music.

http://www.ceolsean.net/content/Pwar/Pwar_TOC.html

He is recorded in the Medals Rolls Index as Sergeant-Piper of the 9th HLI, with service number 1159 and 330035.

He is recorded on the Service Medal and Award Rolls as 'Pipe Major' of the 9th HLI with service number 330035, that he enlisted on 13 Oct 1909 and was discharged on 07 Jul 1917.

In 'The Pipes of War' (Seton) under HLI, it is recorded that Pipe Major T Baillie 330075 was discharged after 31 years service. Presumably, the digit '7' is an errror.

Anyone know whether he is mentioned in the HLI Chronicles (?)

Thanks for this, Ron.

[Ron Abbott]

Another possibility?  I just came across the cover of this book.  If you look at the piper in the 2nd column, 3rd row, you will notice that he is wearing a different sporran, different tartan of kilt and a different jacket to the other pipers.

 

He is wearing the specific sporran pattern/uniform of the artillery section/battery of the Edinburgh UOTC. 

 

But also look at the jackets the other pipers are wearing and the plain (rather than diced glengarries). 

 

Mix the two and you have a uniform fairly similar to that worn by the man in the original photograph in this thread.

 

Maybe completely way off at tangent, but I thought it was a possibility!

 

 

 

  

Edited 8 December , 2018 by Ron Abbott

[FROGSMILE]

That seems like a possibility Ron, how does it square with the obvious Black Watch shaped cap badge?

Edited 9 December , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Abbott]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That seems like a possibility Rob, how does it square with the obvious Black Watch shaped cap badge?

 

 

 It doesn't.  That's the bit I can't fathom, because it does look a Black Watch style of badge and the OTC badge as far as a I'm aware looked nothing like that!

 

Back to starters..........