Unusual Uniform of Scottish Officer?

[FROGSMILE]

The enclosed photo shows a Scottish officer in an unusual mix of head dress and sporran. Perhaps a TF, or Canadian battalion. Can anyone venture an ID?

The sporran reminds me of the officers pattern used by 48th Highlanders of Canada.

Could it be the 'Dandy Ninth' (9th T.F. Royal Scots), or even the Glasgow Highlanders battalion of the HLI, whose badge and glengarry were very similar to the Black Watch and who wore a kilt and sporran.

[Ron Abbott]

Looks like a sporran (rank and file) of the Cape Breton Highlanders but with the cap badge and headwear of the Black Watch or Glasgow Highlanders....then again the badge is not clear.....could be Cape Breton but the glengarry is plain (?).

Others that have worn sporrans with black hair and three small tassles at the top would include the 6th HLI and the Argylls (the top 3 of their swinging six)

One of the volunteer battalions of the Royal Scots also had pipers with three white tassled sporrans with a black background (maybe the 7th or 8th....can't recall).

48th Highlanders of Canada had similar sporrans for officers (three white on black background) but they were long white tassles. And the Camerons had sporrans with white tassles and a black backgound but with only two tassles.

Interesting one. Hoping somebody else out there can work it out better than I can!

[gordon92]

Frogsmile,

Just noticed this thread in parallel to the discussion we were having on the VWF.

Probably best that any continuing posts be placed here since we are likely to be closed down on the VWF as being out of period.

Mike

[Ron Abbott]

Still can't work it out.

It's like a 6th HLI sporran with a 9th HLI cap badge.

Is he a commissioned officer? I can't make out any rank badges on the sleeve or the shoulders.

Calgary Highlanders (?).......although the badge and glengarry don't add up and he is wearing clothes !

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile,

Just noticed this thread in parallel to the discussion we were having on the VWF.

Probably best that any continuing posts be placed here since we are likely to be closed down on the VWF as being out of period.

Mike

Mark won't close us down as some of the uniform items and insignia cross period. He has had that more tolerant stance since the forum opened up to cover post 1902 campaigns as long as it is within reason. Am happy to see the query in both so as many as possible see it.

[FROGSMILE]

Still can't work it out.

It's like a 6th HLI sporran with a 9th HLI cap badge.

Is he a commissioned officer? I can't make out any rank badges on the sleeve or the shoulders.

Calgary Highlanders (?).......although the badge and glengarry don't add up and he is wearing clothes !

Yes, so far I think an HLI connection is the most likely,

Especially as Glasgow is nearby and so far we have no evidence of Canadian units or officers using the Edinburgh Social club where the

Photo was taken. I think he is an officer, or aspirant, as he wears their SD, but has no collar badge. He looks too young to be a WO, but has two overseas service chevrons.

[4thGordons]

. He looks too young to be a WO, but has two overseas service chevrons.

My thought was WO initially, but wouldn't some form of badge be visible on his sleeve? No cuff rank (so presumably shoulder pips not visible...or?) Does the presence of overseas service chevrons narrow the date down somewhat given when they were introduced and what he displays?

The sporran cantle looks like a standard OR one, as opposed to an officers' style.

While it may not help ID his unit, the cross-strap(?) is interesting...it does not look like a Sam Brown strap being too wide and light coloured. Do people think it is actually a cross strap attached to a belt or perhaps the strap of a satchel/bag of some sort that is slung behind him?

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

My thought was WO initially, but wouldn't some form of badge be visible on his sleeve? No cuff rank (so presumably shoulder pips not visible...or?) Does the presence of overseas service chevrons narrow the date down somewhat given when they were introduced and what he displays?

The sporran cantle looks like a standard OR one, as opposed to an officers' style.

While it may not help ID his unit, the cross-strap(?) is interesting...it does not look like a Sam Brown strap being too wide and light coloured. Do people think it is actually a cross strap attached to a belt or perhaps the strap of a satchel/bag of some sort that is slung behind him?

Chris

I think that a WO badge would be visible Chris, but the shoulder straps do not seem clear enough to me to rule out pips.

We know that the overseas chevrons began issue early in 1918.

I agree the sporran cantle looks plain but we know that all sorts were used during WW1, especially in the TF where even old patterns were drawn back into service.

I don't see anything wrong with the width of the brace to the Sam Browne and they were produced in various shades of brown (unlike today), as well as black. I think it is just the reflection of light that gives a slightly paler appearance.

[4thGordons]

I don't see anything wrong with the width of the brace to the Sam Browne and they were produced in various shades of brown (unlike today), as well as black. I think it is just the reflection of light that gives a slightly paler appearance.

Possibly - but I am not convinced. The light in the photo appears to me to be coming from the top right hand side (as we look, around "2 o'clock") of the image - based on the shadowing on his face and on the rest of the image. This would make reflection from the strap difficult. It also still looks too wide to me based on a quick scan/comparison with of a few images I have on my desk - however you could be right.

I take your point about sporrans - but I would have thought this far less likely in 1918 than earlier, and also less likely with an officer/W.O. certainly an interesting image.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Possibly - but I am not convinced. The light in the photo appears to me to be coming from the top right hand side (as we look, around "2 o'clock") of the image - based on the shadowing on his face and on the rest of the image. This would make reflection from the strap difficult. It also still looks too wide to me based on a quick scan/comparison with of a few images I have on my desk - however you could be right.

I take your point about sporrans - but I would have thought this far less likely in 1918 than earlier, and also less likely with an officer/W.O. certainly an interesting image.

Chris

I've had a look at a number of Sam Brownes, including my own and the width looks ok to me, although you make a good point about the angle of light. It is certainly an officers quality jacket so I don't know what else it might be. The only other leather type strap worn in that way was the Indian pattern supporting brace for ORs carrying revolvers and I don't think it is that.

I agree with you that dress anomalies are far less likely in 1918, but when they did appear they tended to be with one-off battalions like the Glasgow Highlanders, Robin Hood Rifles and their ilk. Glasgow is just down the road (relatively) from Edinburgh and I think that badge and glengarry can only be BW or a unit that copied elements of its dress, such as the Glasgow Highlanders. We know that pipers, ORs and officers often wore different patterns of sporran. I feel that what we need is a Glasgow Highlanders expert as I think we can be sure he is not BW.

Like you I suspect, I have scoured all my books on Scottish military dress (I do not have Grierson), but although I have much on the HLI and it's forebears I simply don't have anything with real detail about the Glasgow Highlanders dress, including what happened after 1948, other than that the battalion then adopted Mackenzie sett along with the rest of the regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

I think I have found the most likely answer. Looking at Major R Money Barnes book - the uniforms and history of the Scottish Regiments, for 1914, he lists the HLI band, the only part of the regular regiment to wear kilts, as having a black sporran with three white tails. It seems to me quite likely that being an HLI unit this is what the kilted Glasgow Highlanders wore as the only item differentiating them at a glance from the otherwise Black Watch appearance that they adopted.

[gordon92]

I think I have found the most likely answer. Looking at Major R Money Barnes book - the uniforms and history of the Scottish Regiments, for 1914, he lists the HLI band, the only part of the regular regiment to wear kilts, as having a black sporran with three white tails. It seems to me quite likely that being an HLI unit this is what the kilted Glasgow Highlanders wore as the only item differentiating them at a glance from the otherwise Black Watch appearance that they adopted.

I am quite positive that the 9th HLI (Glasgow Highlanders) wore the Black Watch pattern sporran of five black brushes on a white ground. See the images here: http://www.alexwood.org.uk/2012/06/soldier-ancestor/

The HLI sporran is seen below. While the HLI theory is possible - who knows what items of dress might have been picked up ad hoc - I find the uniform evidence unconvincing toward that thesis.

[FROGSMILE]

I am quite positive that the 9th HLI (Glasgow Highlanders) wore the Black Watch pattern sporran of five black brushes on a white ground. See the images here: http://www.alexwood.org.uk/2012/06/soldier-ancestor/

The HLI sporran is seen below. While the HLI theory is possible - who knows what items of dress might have been picked up ad hoc - I find the uniform evidence unconvincing toward that thesis.

Thanks Mike for the 9 HLI photos that I agree are incontrovertible.

That said, the HLI sporran you have also shown (presumably a bandsman?) looks remarkably like that in the OP, including the distinct shape of the cantle.

Given the shape of cap badge and colouration of glengarry in the OP, what unit would you say is more 'likely' than a 9 HLI officer wearing an HLI sporran. I recognise it is not a neat and perfect solution, but please tell me what you consider to be a more likely scenario given the location of the photo and visual evidence that we can actually see? Is there a Black Watch solution that is more likely? What are the balances of probability in your opinion given our limited options?

[gordon92]

Thanks Mike for the 9 HLI photos that I agree are incontrovertible.

That said, the HLI sporran you have also shown (presumably a bandsman?) looks remarkably like that in the OP, including the distinct shape of the cantle.

Given the shape of cap badge and colouration of glengarry in the OP, what unit would you say is more 'likely' than a 9 HLI officer wearing an HLI sporran. I recognise it is not a neat and perfect solution, but please tell me what you consider to be a more likely scenario given the location of the photo and visual evidence that we can actually see? Is there a Black Watch solution that is more likely? What are the balances of probability in your opinion given our limited options?

I quite agree, Frogsmile, that there is no good solution. I scanned the badges of OTC units in Cox's Military Badges of the British Empire 1914-18 to no avail. Indeed, Empire-wide the only units that wore what I will call the elongated Thistle Star badge were The Black Watch, 9th HLI, and the three CEF battalions associated with The Royal Highlanders of Canada. I cannot imagine a Black Watch officer or aspirant being caught dead in that sporran. So, given the Edinburgh provenance of the photo, I would have to go along with you on 9th HLI as an uncomfortable choice. I still hope to hear back from the curator at the Cape Breton Highlanders Museum about a possible presence of the 185th CEF in Scotland, but that seems unlikely.

[FROGSMILE]

I quite agree, Frogsmile, that there is no good solution. I scanned the badges of OTC units in Cox's Military Badges of the British Empire 1914-18 to no avail. Indeed, Empire-wide the only units that wore what I will call the elongated Thistle Star badge were The Black Watch, 9th HLI, and the three CEF battalions associated with The Royal Highlanders of Canada. I cannot imagine a Black Watch officer or aspirant being caught dead in that sporran. So, given the Edinburgh provenance of the photo, I would have to go along with you on 9th HLI as an uncomfortable choice. I still hope to hear back from the curator at the Cape Breton Highlanders Museum about a possible presence of the 185th CEF in Scotland, but that seems unlikely.

One further thing occurred to me. Was it not common for the officers of a unit to wear a different pattern sporran to the men? I don't think there were any officers in your linked photos. It seems as if the colouration is reversed. ORs white with three black. Perhaps the officers black with three white? We need an expert on the Glasgow Highlanders. The answer is out there.

[Ron Abbott]

OK, going way out now.....but there was another unit which wore the Black Watch style of cap badge and not the 9th HLI.

It was the Highland Cyclist Battalion and yes, there are a few photos around of them wearing kilts, however I've yet to find one of an officer with a sporran.

Worth pursuing or can anyone immediately rule it out?

[FROGSMILE]

OK, going way out now.....but there was another unit which wore the Black Watch style of cap badge and not the 9th HLI.

It was the Highland Cyclist Battalion and yes, there are a few photos around of them wearing kilts, however I've yet to find one of an officer with a sporran.

Worth pursuing or can anyone immediately rule it out?

Nothing should be ruled out.

It's been suggested in the VWF that he might be the Bandmaster of 9th HLI, which would fit very neatly.

With the above in mind it would be good to know where the 2/9th and HLI TF Reserve battalions were in 1918.

[gordon92]

One further thing occurred to me. Was it not common for the officers of a unit to wear a different pattern sporran to the men? I don't think there were any officers in your linked photos. It seems as if the colouration is reversed. ORs white with three black. Perhaps the officers black with three white? We need an expert on the Glasgow Highlanders. The answer is out there.

The only difference in the sporran worn by officers, sergeants, and pipers was the brass cantle, usually gilted for officers. ORs had a leather cantle. The same configuration of five black brushes on a white ground applied to sporrans of all ranks.

[gordon92]

OK, going way out now.....but there was another unit which wore the Black Watch style of cap badge and not the 9th HLI.

It was the Highland Cyclist Battalion and yes, there are a few photos around of them wearing kilts, however I've yet to find one of an officer with a sporran.

Worth pursuing or can anyone immediately rule it out?

Here is an image of the HCB Pipes and Drums wearing Black Watch sporrans as would be expected.

[gordon92]

Nothing should be ruled out.

It's been suggested in the VWF that he might be the Bandmaster of 9th HLI, which would fit very neatly.

With the above in mind it would be good to know where the 2/9th and HLI TF Reserve battalions were in 1918.

According to http://www.1914-1918.net/hli.htm, 2/9th HLI was in Ireland in 1918. The only HLI Territorial Bns in Scotland during 1918 were the 3/5th and 3/7th at Bridge of Allan near Stirling.

[Ron Abbott]

Yes, so far I think an HLI connection is the most likely,

Especially as Glasgow is nearby and so far we have no evidence of Canadian units or officers using the Edinburgh Social club where the

Photo was taken. I think he is an officer, or aspirant, as he wears their SD, but has no collar badge. He looks too young to be a WO, but has two overseas service chevrons.

Maybe a different approach? Where and what was this Edinburgh Social Club? Commissioned officers only....or open to the rank and file?

All I see is some plantlife behind him and the corner of a window. Do you have a date and location for the photo?

I presume it is at least d.d. to 1918 given the overseas chevrons. No medal ribbons either.

[Ron Abbott]

Pity you can't see the cap badges or more of the officer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVawbGbaRds

[gordon92]

Pity you can't see the cap badges or more of the officer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVawbGbaRds

Ron - Great find on the video. The men marching past are the 6th HLI.

[FROGSMILE]

The only difference in the sporran worn by officers, sergeants, and pipers was the brass cantle, usually gilted for officers. ORs had a leather cantle. The same configuration of five black brushes on a white ground applied to sporrans of all ranks.

Thanks Mike, I was thinking of the likes of the A&SH, and wondered what the Glasgow Highlanders arrangement was.

[FROGSMILE]

According to http://www.1914-1918.net/hli.htm, 2/9th HLI was in Ireland in 1918. The only HLI Territorial Bns in Scotland during 1918 were the 3/5th and 3/7th at Bridge of Allan near Stirling.

Yes agreed. I am not sure what the status of the 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion was, but they were at Fort George from 1916 until returning to Maryhill early in 1918.

You did not make any comment about the possibility of him being the Bandmaster. Apart from his apparent youth, this would seem to fit with Major R Money Barnes's comment regarding HLI band sporrans, and

what appears to be Glasgow Highlanders head dress.