What does "1794 to PCM" mean?

[wbremner]

Does anyone know what the note "1794 to PCM" (or could be "PM") means when handwritten on a soldiers Statement of Service?

This soldier enlisted with the 24th Royal Fusiliers (Second Sportsman's) in January 1915. His descendants believe that he went out to France in late 1915, possibly with the rest of the battalion (which would mean mid-November), was wounded (possibly by gas attack, but no medical records exist), and was discharged in April 1916. There is a family story that his wife went over to bring him back from France because he was so sick.

Here's a snapshot of his Pension Record, which comprise just two pages, being the Short Service Attestation updated with the Statement of Service. You can see the "1794 to PCM" note at the top with the date "14/1/16". This may be the date he was wounded or returned home, we're not sure.

Thanks,

WB

[Langdon]

Hi WB,

Could you tell us who this soldier is?

Mike

[wbremner]

Hi WB,

Could you tell us who this soldier is?

Mike

Mike,

The family would prefer anonymity. I realize that might make it harder to figure this out, so I was hoping it was common enough to be recognizable.

Much appreciated,

WB.

[Stew]

Just a bit of a shot in the dark so to speak but as this is on a pensions record, could PCM/PM refer to per calendar month/per month? Might be way off the mark but its a possible starter.

Stew

[charlesmessenger]

WB

One thing is certain. He was posted to 3oth Royal Fusiliers, a Reserve battalion, in August 1915, the same month that 30 RF.was formed. This was probably because he had been medically downgraded. He was discharged from this battalion in April 1916 and hence never left UK.

Charles M

[IRC Kevin]

Army Form B.179 is the 'Medical Report on an Invalid' form- wonder if the '1794' is a connected form for the Pension Board?

[wbremner]

WB

One thing is certain. He was posted to 3oth Royal Fusiliers, a Reserve battalion, in August 1915, the same month that 30 RF.was formed. This was probably because he had been medically downgraded. He was discharged from this battalion in April 1916 and hence never left UK.

Charles M

Charles,

That is a very good point, but I have tracked others who enlisted with 24RF in early 1915, were posted to 30RF at the same time as this chap (a batch on the same day), and still went out to France with the main 24RF battalion in mid-November. So there's no reason to believe that this chap did not go out to France, although there is no recorded evidence that he did, either.

For example, Harry Cox (SPTS/2952) enlisted with 24RF on Jan 25th 1915, was posted to 30RF on August 16th, and went to France with the battalion on November 15th.

To be honest, it's a bit of a mystery as to why this happened. Did they go to 30RF for more training? It would be useful to know.

Thanks,

William

Army Form B.179 is the 'Medical Report on an Invalid' form- wonder if the '1794' is a connected form for the Pension Board?

Excellent thought. Can anyone expand on this?

Just a bit of a shot in the dark so to speak but as this is on a pensions record, could PCM/PM refer to per calendar month/per month? Might be way off the mark but its a possible starter.

Stew

Not a bad idea. Worth exploring.

[charlesmessenger]

William

If your man had been posted back to 24 RF from 30 RF it would have been noted on his Record of Service. I am therefore certain that he did not go to France and fear that it is a family myth.

30 RF was formed from the depot companies of 23 & 24 RF, which explains why a batch, including your man, was posted to it, The depoy coys themselves were made up of men who were below medical category A, those aged under 19, and men surplus to establishment of the parent battalion.

Charles M

[wbremner]

William

If your man had been posted back to 24 RF from 30 RF it would have been noted on his Record of Service. I am therefore certain that he did not go to France and fear that it is a family myth.

30 RF was formed from the depot companies of 23 & 24 RF, which explains why a batch, including your man, was posted to it, The depoy coys themselves were made up of men who were below medical category A, those aged under 19, and men surplus to establishment of the parent battalion.

Charles M

Charles,

Point taken, but I have to - very respectfully - disagree until more evidence confirms either way. This could well be a case of an incomplete pension / service record. I'm not as expert as some on this Forum but I have reviewed many records in research of 23RF, 24RF, and 30RF and have found quite a few that do not reflect the full facts (even two versions of a service statement with conflicting info!). The family is adamant that he went out to France.

Certainly it is true that 30RF was comprised of depot companies of 23RF and 24RF (actually in July 1915, not August, which is a different discussion). I estimate that, in addition to the soldiers who recruited directly into 30RF there were about 350-450 men from each of 23RF and 24RF who ended up in 30RF while the core battalions (approx 1,050 each) went off to France. 30RF recruiting started at about SPTS/4000 and continued up to SPTS/5900 or so.

I really appreciate your input and very interested to continue discussing this.

Regards,

William

[ss002d6252]

The problem is that without the name etc it's very difficult for anyone to help.

Craig

[wbremner]

The problem is that without the name etc it's very difficult for anyone to help.

Craig

I completely understand. I am reaching back to the family with an update and will see if they are open to sharing the name. I am doing this as a favor so it's their decision.

My hope was that the "1794 to PCM" note was common enough to be recognized by someone.

Thanks,

William

[Steven Broomfield]

If there's no evidence that he did - or didn't - go to France, does he have an MIC? If so, case proven; if not, case probably proven the other way. Do his family have any medals?

[ss002d6252]

I completely understand. I am reaching back to the family with an update and will see if they are open to sharing the name. I am doing this as a favor so it's their decision.

My hope was that the "1794 to PCM" note was common enough to be recognized by someone.

Thanks,

William

Are they aware the records are open for public perusal anyway ?. Sometimes the reticence is because people don't realise that someone could open a record tomorrow that could be this man and read it quite happily, regardless of the content being sensitive or not.

Craig

[IRC Kevin]

Having had another look at this I think that it's 179A, which is the form titled 'Medical Report on a Soldier Boarded Prior to Discharge or Transfer to Class W., W. (T), P., P. or (T) of the Reserve.' This form was sent to the Pensions Ministry (PM?) and contained details of any illness or injury and whether or not this was due to military service. Form completed and signed by the medical officer in charge of the case.

[wbremner]

Having had another look at this I think that it's 179A, which is the form titled 'Medical Report on a Soldier Boarded Prior to Discharge or Transfer to Class W., W. (T), P., P. or (T) of the Reserve.' This form was sent to the Pensions Ministry (PM?) and contained details of any illness or injury and whether or not this was due to military service. Form completed and signed by the medical officer in charge of the case.

Great stuff, thanks very much Kevin. That would make a lot of sense.

William

[Kentishwolf]

Another thought, expanding on IRC's, if it is PM, could that be Pay Master as in form 179A to Pay Master?

[charlesmessenger]

William

If he does have a Medal Index Cats, as Stephen, suggests, I will eat my words. If this is the case you can find his actual dates of service in France in the relevant RF medal roll, which is at Kew under WO 329/799.

Charles M

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd have to say that, despite family history (often an unreliable source, despite what the various slebs on Who do you think you are seem to think) given Charles' expertise, I'd be queuing to eat his words too if this mystery man has a medal card.

[Langdon]

I asked for a name in post #2 so that I could look him up in the Silver War Badge records (as well as have a better view of his records). If he had been discharged in 1916 after been gassed or wounded it's more than likely he'd have a SWB..

But perhaps you've already looked?

Mike

[wbremner]

Another thought, expanding on IRC's, if it is PM, could that be Pay Master as in form 179A to Pay Master?

Another good suggestion, thanks Kentishwolf.

If the form is 179A as IRC suggested, and the date it was referred to Pay Master (or Pensions Ministry) is 14-1-16, are there any assumptions that can be made as to the time elapsed between start of sickness /injury and submission of form? Just wondering if it is possible to figure out a timeline up to Jan 14th 1916.

William

If he does have a Medal Index Cats, as Stephen, suggests, I will eat my words. If this is the case you can find his actual dates of service in France in the relevant RF medal roll, which is at Kew under WO 329/799.

Charles M

Thanks, Charles. No MIC found yet, but a challenge is that there are many instances of this name in Ancestry. Continuing to look through these.

I'd have to say that, despite family history (often an unreliable source, despite what the various slebs on Who do you think you are seem to think) given Charles' expertise, I'd be queuing to eat his words too if this mystery man has a medal card.

Thanks, Stephen. My original inclination is that he did not go out to France, and with GWF celebs such as you and Charles weighing in, I am continuing to question the oral history.

[wbremner]

I asked for a name in post #2 so that I could look him up in the Silver War Badge records (as well as have a better view of his records). If he had been discharged in 1916 after been gassed or wounded it's more than likely he'd have a SWB..

But perhaps you've already looked?

Mike

Mike, thanks. I did research SWB records in Ancestry based on his name and regimental number and as best I can tell he is not recorded there.

Is it correct that SWBs were first issued in September 1916? If so, were they issued for soldiers discharged before September 1916?

If a soldier had been injured or fallen sick in the UK before going overseas, and was discharged because of the injury / sickness, would he have been eligible for the SWB? According to his Service Statement he was discharged under paragraph 392 xvi, which I though was an indicator of eligibility for SWB. But I could be wrong.

Would an absence of SWB record indicate that it is more likely he did go out to France, or did not, or neither?

William

[Langdon]

Hi William,

If you haven't already done so you should read this SWB section in The Long, Long Trail.

In reply:

Yes, the SWB's were first issued in September 1916 and retrospectively for those injured/wounded/fallen sick prior to this date.

Yes, a soldier didn't have to have served overseas to be eligible for a SWB.

392 (xvi) is a clear indicator that he was eligible for a SWB. "No longer physically fit for war service". Usually the SWB records say whether wounded or sick.

The absence of a SWB record has no bearing on whether he went to France or not. The discovery of a SWB record will usually show if the soldier served overseas (or not) as well as the reason for its issue.

BTW ref. the anonymity - the great thing about the forum is that in most cases more than one set of eyes leads to a successful outcome - and often leads to further (unsolicited) information.

Mike

[wbremner]

Hi William,

If you haven't already done so you should read this SWB section in The Long, Long Trail.

In reply:

Yes, the SWB's were first issued in September 1916 and retrospectively for those injured/wounded/fallen sick prior to this date.

Yes, a soldier didn't have to have served overseas to be eligible for a SWB.

392 (xvi) is a clear indicator that he was eligible for a SWB. "No longer physically fit for war service". Usually the SWB records say whether wounded or sick.

The absence of a SWB record has no bearing on whether he went to France or not. The discovery of a SWB record will usually show if the soldier served overseas (or not) as well as the reason for its issue.

BTW ref. the anonymity - the great thing about the forum is that in most cases more than one set of eyes leads to a successful outcome - and often leads to further (unsolicited) information.

Mike

Mike,

Very good stuff, thanks again. Your BTW comment is well taken.

William

[wbremner]

All, I have started a new topic on this soldier, Pte. Frank G. Heath, with a request for help. Thanks!