P 1903 bayonets

[Khaki]

Many thanks LF, and congratulations to you also,

it will be interesting to see what Julian's colleagues can come up with on the markings,

regards

khaki

ps In honor of my son's wedding being on ANZAC day, every guest place setting was provided with an old style poppy and they were well received with guests wearing them and taking them home with them. My son wore his dress white uniform USCG(aux).

[trajan]

Hello Julian, just got back from my eldest sons wedding, needed to relax, and what better way than with the forum. Blade is M1903 Wilkinson London no unit marks apart from the tang marks and an inspection mark on the ricasso, scabbard is interesting I forget what model it is, you will probably know, it has the metal stud in the tip, interesting the scabbard is reinforced with hand sewn leather as you can see, I thought I should leave it be as it's a tight fit.

khaki

ps The 'inspection'? mark is crown over 49 over W, no broad arrows anywhere, I just got daring an slid the leather reinforcement off the scabbard and there are no marks there either, the scabbard is quite strong and is not serial numbered.

Congratulations on your son's wedding, my only daughter got married in February.

That is a nice Pattern 1903, and I had never seen those interesting tang markings before.

Many thanks LF, and congratulations to you also,

it will be interesting to see what Julian's colleagues can come up with on the markings,

... ps In honor of my son's wedding being on ANZAC day, every guest place setting was provided with an old style poppy and they were well received with guests wearing them and taking them home with them. My son wore his dress white uniform USCG(aux).

Well, with a 31 year daughter still living at home in the UK with her mum, and the two boys here only 8 and 6, I have a way to go to catch up with you two - congrats to you both, and thanks especially Khaki, for taking the time out to answer! And such a wonderful gesture with the poppies...

Khaki's Wilkinson inspection mark is the same as the one I posted - 49/W, but the script is different. I'll try and bug the guys in history tomorrow on these. I have a feeling, though, that they might not be Arabic or Osmanli, but one of the other 'Eastern' languages that uses Arabic-style letters...

Best,

Julian

PS: Incidentally, marriages... I have the worst of both worlds if/when they come come along... In the UK the bride's dad pays - right? In Turkey, the groom's dad pays... So I'll have to fork out for all three sets of nuptials - unless I can get the daughter to marry a Turk and the boys to marry UK lasses!

[sawdoc34]

I have seen a couple of P1903s with those type markings on tangs over the years, apparently they were brought back from Afghanistan by brit/us troops when they came across those caches of arms, Otto had 1 for sale last time I checked his site & that was how he described it.

Even more interesting was the Afghan made P1888 with the longer blade, very scarce, nearly bought 1 a couple of years back but something else came up, regretted it ever since

Aleck

[trajan]

I have seen a couple of P1903s with those type markings on tangs over the years, apparently they were brought back from Afghanistan by brit/us troops when they came across those caches of arms, Otto had 1 for sale last time I checked his site & that was how he described it.

Even more interesting was the Afghan made P1888 with the longer blade, very scarce, nearly bought 1 a couple of years back but something else came up, regretted it ever since

Thanks for that hint as to Afghan origin mate - I had a feeling that these were not regular Arabic or Osmanli letters, and if I get a chance then I should find out tomorrow (Sunday) or at least within the week!

As for the long P.1888, hmmm, I'd feel - what's the expression? - gutted?

Best,

Julian

[Khaki]

The pommel markings are interesting. On the 'face' a '56' then a gap and what seems to be an 'H' or a 'B', over the serial number '144'. On top of the pommel, '2 N S T[?] E' over a struck out '186' - the 'S' is almost twice the size of the other letters. Anyone have any ideas on these markings? If so, I'd love to hear them!

TTFN,

Trajan

I have been pondering over the H B markings, the only thing I can think of is Highland brigade, I know that it was formed a number of times including the 2nd Boer War, but I cannot find when it was stood down or if it still existed post 1900 and into the era of the 1903 bayonets.

Something to consider.

khaki

[GWF1967]

My first P. 1903, I thought I'd post it here. My first Mole as well.  

 

MOLE crown, S/8 46. Crown E. R.   9... 1905.   

W /I\ D.  X. 

Bone grips, and 12" overall. 

[Dave66]

23 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

My first P. 1903, I thought I'd post it here. My first Mole as well.  

 

MOLE crown, S/8 46. Crown E. R.   9... 1905.   

W /I\ D.  X. 

Bone grips, and 12" overall. 

Most unusual G.W.F..

very nice find, looks to be period converted to a fighting knife...love the grips.

 

Dave.

[GWF1967]

56 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Most unusual G.W.F..

very nice find, looks to be period converted to a fighting knife...love the grips.

 

Dave.

Thanks Dave, 

 I went to the shop to have a second look at something completely different,  the Mole was new in;   and to me, ... very reasonably priced so quickly out again.

[JMB1943]

On 4/6/2015 at 10:36, trajan said:

Thanks JS. Any comments on what I call 'carbon leaching'? It has affected about 30-50% of my P.1888's and 1903's. 

 

Trajan,

 

Your question about ‘carbon leaching’ reminded me that I had bought a P.1907 last year which had a small area of active rust at the tip.

Treatment with wire wool and oil removed that easily, and revealed an equivalent sized black ‘carbon stain’ beneath.

So I think that the ‘carbon leaching ‘ is actually an indicator of previous rust-spots and is merely the pitted surface of the steel.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

Thanks Dave, 

 I went to the shop to have a second look at something completely different,  the Mole was new in;   and to me, ... very reasonably priced so quickly out again.

These things just have to be done....id have done the same in your shoes.

Funny enough, I had a mooch today, and in one shop that never usually has anything military I saw the top of a P1907...surface rust and looking a little sorry for itself, brought in yesterday by an old lady who said it had been in her attic for years...came home with me for 50 quid.

after a little cleaning turns out to be a unit marked H.Q.R. chapman made in 1908.😄...May post a few pics tomorrow.

 

Dave.

 

[GWF1967]

7 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

These things just have to be done....id have done the same in your shoes.

Funny enough, I had a mooch today, and in one shop that never usually has anything military I saw the top of a P1907...surface rust and looking a little sorry for itself, brought in yesterday by an old lady who said it had been in her attic for years...came home with me for 50 quid.

after a little cleaning turns out to be a unit marked H.Q.R. chapman made in 1908.😄...May post a few pics tomorrow.

 

Dave.

 

Very nice. I look forward to seeing them;  it's great to bump into things. 

 

[shippingsteel]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

My first P. 1903, I thought I'd post it here. My first Mole as well.  

 

Just a little trivia regarding this unusual 'cutdown' P1903 ... well technically it's not a P1903 anymore.! 

This blade actually started out as a Patt.88 (note faint W^D on ricasso) before being converted to P1903 form.

You can see that this conversion was done at Sheffield, by the overstamped Crown/S/46 inspection marking. 

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

Just a little trivia regarding this unusual 'cutdown' P1903 ... well technically it's not a P1903 anymore.! 

This blade actually started out as a Patt.88 (note faint W^D on ricasso) before being converted to P1903 form.

You can see that this conversion was done at Sheffield, by the overstamped Crown/S/46 inspection marking. 

Thanks for the information re. the conversion and S/46 inspection mark on my '03 Franken-bayo. 

 

 

[Dave66]

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

Just a little trivia regarding this unusual 'cutdown' P1903 ... well technically it's not a P1903 anymore.! 

This blade actually started out as a Patt.88 (note faint W^D on ricasso) before being converted to P1903 form.

You can see that this conversion was done at Sheffield, by the overstamped Crown/S/46 inspection marking. 

Yes, hadn't noticed last night, indeed a p1888 conversion.

Just checked my p1903 conversion from P1888, and it has the same crown/S/46...converted by chapman as J.A.C. Stamped on the end of the pommel.

Presumably the Edwardian crown was original to the p1888 at manufacture, so a bayonet that was only a couple of years old when converted....I keep wondering where those elusive p1888 mk 3 have all disappeared to!!

 

Dave.

 

 

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Presumably the Edwardian crown was original to the p1888 at manufacture, so a bayonet that was only a couple of years old when converted....

 

If you look carefully, you can see the later KC has been stamped over the earlier QVC - two bases are visible!

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

If you look carefully, you can see the later KC has been stamped over the earlier QVC - two bases are visible!

well spotted Andrew...thats interesting to know as the conversion I have still has the old victorian crown , you live and learn.

 

Dave.

[trajan]

What a fascinating piece you have there Khaki! Does the end of the pommel have a marking?

 

On 2/10/2018 at 01:52, JMB1943 said:

ur question about ‘carbon leaching’ reminded me that I had bought a P.1907 last year which had a small area of active rust at the tip.

Treatment with wire wool and oil removed that easily, and revealed an equivalent sized black ‘carbon stain’ beneath.

So I think that the ‘carbon leaching ‘ is actually an indicator of previous rust-spots and is merely the pitted surface of the steel.

 

Thanks JMB! Yes, the impression I received from archaeological metallurgists was that rust will develop much quicker in areas of imperfect casting.

[Dave66]

I'm looking at another p1903, it has a 1903 naval scabbard with integral frog. The scabbard is dated 04 and has the correct British markings with internal chape, the integral frog has a row of 4 rivets to the rear instead of the stitched seam...Just want to make sure all British and no Indian additions.

 

thanks all,

 

Dave.

[shippingsteel]

Sounds like this scabbard is the P1903, Naval, Mark II which was introduced 11th March 1904. (LoC 12185)

This scabbard has the 4 rivets securing the seam, and should also have another 2 rivets forming the belt loop.

[Dave66]

8 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Sounds like this scabbard is the P1903, Naval, Mark II which was introduced 11th March 1904. (LoC 12185)

This scabbard has the 4 rivets securing the seam, and should also have another 2 rivets forming the belt loop.

Thank you shippingsteel,

the belt loop looks to be formed and secured by the 4 rivets at the back. It did have an additional 2 rivets on the belt loop but these have been removed, I presume, to allow use of a wider belt. 

 

 

Dave.

[Toby Brayley]

Might be of interest to P1903 fans , an unusual Afghan Arsenal, modified from P1888. 

 

[shippingsteel]

Yes, thanks for adding the pictures Toby. The Afghan pieces are certainly unusual but becoming more commonly seen since "that" War. And illustrating an excellent example of the (Non-British style) "Indian Pattern" scabbard which now seem to be everywhere with P1903s. Again that BAH 'unit marking' which seems very common. There are at least 4 of us on GWF that have pieces from this very same 'cache'.!

 

Edited 10 October , 2018 by shippingsteel

[Toby Brayley]

The Indian pattern scabbards are so common now, I get all excited when I see them only to be disappointed on closer inspection. 

 

I have the exceptionally rare, 1 of 1000, Canadian 1893 and it's similarities to the 1903 are quite remarkable, despite it being for a MkVI Martini Henry. Thankfully it was listed as a 1903 :-) 

 

[Dave66]

5 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

The Indian pattern scabbards are so common now, I get all excited when I see them only to be disappointed on closer inspection. 

 

I have the exceptionally rare, 1 of 1000, Canadian 1893 and it's similarities to the 1903 are quite remarkable, despite it being for a MkVI Martini Henry. Thankfully it was listed as a 1903 :-) 

 

Very nice indeed, 

I tend to stick to British, but I found an Oliver pattern frog a while back and snapped it up as I know how scarce they are...sadly only housing a plain 1888 at the moment until I come across something more suitable.

 

Dave.

[MKC]

Gents,

 

Pictured is the 1903 pattern bayonet issued to my maternal grandfather, 6946 Harold William Given, 4th Field Artillery Brigade, AIF. He was an Driver in an artillery battery.

 

Can the knowledgeable ones please interpret the markings for me?

 

Blade:

(broad arrow) over EFD

X

 

(crown) 34 over E

(crown) ER 

1903 - that one is obvious!

 

Top edge near bayonet lug: (crown) over 83

 

Wood grips: HY 150 (or) 160

 

Pommel: 

R (struck through)

F (struck through)

425 (struck through)

5 (struck through)

 

Pommel end: EFD

 

Scabbard top edge: 18

 

Frog: 

6

FCE

W?? & Co Ltd 1916 (last figure obscured)

 

Any assistance would be appreciated, thank you. Apologies for the less than perfect imagery.

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited 12 October , 2018 by MKC