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trajan

P 1903 bayonets

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trajan

There doesn't seem to be a thread devoted just to P.1903 bayonets - or if there ever was it seems to have been lost in the depths of time, and I duly apologise for not locating it! So, I thought I'd get the ball rolling with the second bayonet and scabbard the Easter Bunny sent my way today at the Antika Pazara (for the other, a Turkish M.1887, see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161354&page=9#entry2247766 post 203)...

So this is an EFD, 10/04, with some rather interesting markings...

First the bayonet - which, like a lot of the ones I find in Turkey displays a lot of 'carbon' leaching on the blade (but there again, that does suggest that it has been around):

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trajan

Now the ricasso markings, for those who love such things! The inspector's mark is'34/E' or just possibly 'B4/E'

post-69449-0-32586600-1428223000_thumb.j post-69449-0-40414800-1428223016_thumb.j

The scabbard is marked on the back of the belt loop, with look like four digits '1 4 ? ?': they might become a more clearer with some leather treatment to smooth out the cracks.

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The pommel markings are interesting. On the 'face' a '56' then a gap and what seems to be an 'H' or a 'B', over the serial number '144'. On top of the pommel, '2 N S T[?] E' over a struck out '186' - the 'S' is almost twice the size of the other letters. Anyone have any ideas on these markings? If so, I'd love to hear them!

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TTFN,

Trajan

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Martin Feledziak

A very unusual gift choice from the Easter Bunny.

But then so is a chocolate egg.

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trajan

A very unusual gift choice from the Easter Bunny.

But then so is a chocolate egg.

Yes, something to do with death - and resurrection with a chocolate egg!

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sawdoc34

Interseting markings there Julian, cant really make them out tho :(

Any chance you could email me pics?

Looks like it came with a nice Indian pattern scabbard/frog, I now have both black & brown versions to go with my indian P1903s,

Aleck

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trajan

Interseting markings there Julian, cant really make them out tho :(

Any chance you could email me pics?

Looks like it came with a nice Indian pattern scabbard/frog, I now have both black & brown versions to go with my indian P1903s,

Aleck

Will do me best... Rather hurried day yesterday...

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jscott

Nice one Trajan, the P03's are a lovely bayonet. I'm afraid I have no idea on the markings though - the fact they have stamped some of them on the back side of the pommel is also very odd.

Will be interested to see if anyone has seen anything similar.

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trajan

Thanks JS. Any comments on what I call 'carbon leaching'? It has affected about 30-50% of my P.1888's and 1903's. And although I vaguely recall seeing a GB bayonet with markings on the top of the pommel, I can't remember where. Mike Rose shows a trials pattern 1903 marked this way, a '169/D', but the other way round and not lined out.

EDIT: Incidentally, P.1903 buffs - see also the thread JS started on unit-markings on P.1903's at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219180&hl=yeomanry#entry2170021

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trajan

On top of the pommel, '2 N S T[?] E' over a struck out '186' - the 'S' is almost twice the size of the other letters. Anyone have any ideas on these markings? If so, I'd love to hear them!

Got it, I think! Instructions for armourers 1904 has "N.STF" for the (98th) 'Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire Regiment), so the lined-out marking perhaps the 2nd Battalion of the said regiment, which served in India throughout the war. Now, what is the other marking? In the same source, we have 'H' for 'Hussars'... Hmmm.

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Lancashire Fusilier

There doesn't seem to be a thread devoted just to P.1903 bayonets - or if there ever was it seems to have been lost in the depths of time, and I duly apologise for not locating it! So, I thought I'd get the ball rolling with the second bayonet and scabbard the Easter Bunny sent my way today at the Antika Pazara

Trajan,

Yes, a very nice Easter gift for you.

Here is my Pattern 1903 bayonet, shown alongside a P1888 for comparison.

Regards,

LF

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trajan

Ta LF - nice examples of both. Nothing like that ever (or rarely!) comes my way, but I am happy with what does! Is that one of those 'Indian pattern' scabbards, with the helve carrier?

Trajan

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Lancashire Fusilier

Is that one of those 'Indian pattern' scabbards, with the helve carrier?

Trajan,

No just the scabbard, much the same as your's.

Interestingly, after October 1909, the Pattern 1903 Mk I scabbards ( Land ) were fitted with the external chape of the Pattern 1907 bayonet scabbard.

Regards,

LF

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trajan

... Interestingly, after October 1909, the Pattern 1903 Mk I scabbards ( Land ) were fitted with the external chape of the Pattern 1907 bayonet scabbard.

Thanks LF - I haven't, in all honesty, really studied or compared the chapes on the scabbards that I do have... Will try to do that sometime this week (practical bayonet studies have to be done when I can be at home alone with the bairns still at school!)

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sawdoc34

Very nice pair of bayonets you have there LF :)

Any chance of further pics of the frog on the P1903?

Aleck

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Lancashire Fusilier

Any chance of further pics of the frog on the P1903?

Aleck,

Certainly, give me a day or two and I shall post some additional photographs of the P1903's frog.

Regards,

LF

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trajan

Any chance you could email me pics?

Looks like it came with a nice Indian pattern scabbard/frog, I now have both black & brown versions to go with my indian P1903s,

Aleck

Scabbards: this is one of three brown ones of this pattern I have, two with both helve carriers, one marked (Indian?) BAH/156, the other marked 1/5 HANTS (they stayed in India), the third unmarked with the top helve strap only, and so a repair? I have a single black example only, with no helve carriers.

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trajan

Interseting markings there Julian, cant really make them out tho :(

Any chance you could email me pics?

Don't know if these of the marks are any better? It is difficult to get the 'H' or 'B' at the end of the pommel side marking...The cross stroke is above and slightly to the right of the upper screw slot in the press stud...

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On this last one, the tail of the 'S' extends beneath the scoring out line by some distance - the stamp was twice the size of the others. But, pretty certainly NSTF, so unless its something like the Norwegian Submariners Territorial Force I think North Staffs will do for now!

Trajan

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sawdoc34

LF,

Cheers mate, look forward to pics :)

Julian,

North Staffords was what I was thinking, just want better pics to see if the E that you mentioned was in fact an F before suggesting it.

Think I have seen markings on the top of the pommel but cant for the life of me remember when/where, must check back thru emails & usual sites.

Once again, nice finds with this & M1887....... seems that you are more regularly finding bayonets in much better condition over in Turkey nowadays ;)

Aleck

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trajan

Thanks LF - I haven't, in all honesty, really studied or compared the chapes on the scabbards that I do have... Will try to do that sometime this week (practical bayonet studies have to be done when I can be at home alone with the bairns still at school!)

Interestingly, after October 1909, the Pattern 1903 Mk I scabbards ( Land ) were fitted with the external chape of the Pattern 1907 bayonet scabbard.

Thanks again for that pointer LF - I gather this is the LOC 14866 for 12th October? Still need to check those chapes though... :blink:

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trajan

How about this one? I assume a contract-made job (MRDK might confirm?), but with Arabic/Farsi/Osmanli on both sides of the tang... It is on an US of A auction site (no, not that one!) and I can pass on details if anyone PM.s me - of course, I have no connection to the seller - or I would have nabbed it!

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Khaki

Good morning Julian,

Very nice photos, are you able to translate the writing on the (top) tang?, I have one like it that I got at a show.

thanks

khaki

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trajan

Good morning Julian,

Very nice photos, are you able to translate the writing on the (top) tang?, I have one like it that I got at a show.

thanks

khaki

Hi Khaki,

That's interesting to know! Can you post some photographs? Is yours also a Wilkinson? No, I have not had a good go at the markings yet... If nobody chips in with an answer re: the script then I'll ask my colleagues in the History Dept. - they do Arabic and Osmanli.

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Khaki

I'll see what I can do (re photo)

khaki

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Khaki

Hello Julian, just got back from my eldest sons wedding, needed to relax, and what better way than with the forum. Blade is M1903 Wilkinson London no unit marks apart from the tang marks and an inspection mark on the ricasso, scabbard is interesting I forget what model it is, you will probably know, it has the metal stud in the tip, interesting the scabbard is reinforced with hand sewn leather as you can see, I thought I should leave it be as it's a tight fit.

khaki

ps The 'inspection'? mark is crown over 49 over W, no broad arrows anywhere, I just got daring an slid the leather reinforcement off the scabbard and there are no marks there either, the scabbard is quite strong and is not serial numbered.

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Lancashire Fusilier

Hello Julian, just got back from my eldest sons wedding, needed to relax, and what better way than with the forum. Blade is M1903 Wilkinson London no unit marks apart from the tang marks and an inspection mark on the ricasso, scabbard is interesting I forget what model it is, you will probably know, it has the metal stud in the tip, interesting the scabbard is reinforced with hand sewn leather as you can see, I thought I should leave it be as it's a tight fit.

khaki

ps The 'inspection'? mark is crown over 49 over W, no broad arrows anywhere, I just got daring an slid the leather reinforcement off the scabbard and there are no marks there either, the scabbard is quite strong and is not serial numbered.

khaki,

Congratulations on your son's wedding, my only daughter got married in February.

That is a nice Pattern 1903, and I had never seen those interesting tang markings before.

Regards,

LF

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