Help needed please - WW1 British POW Frank H Bibby Reg. # 129439 / S92

[Earthangel]

Hello,

My name is Graeme John Bibby, I would very much appreciate some assistance and or guidance in relation to my desperate search for WW1 POW records for my father, Frank Harrison BIBBY, who was captured during WW1 and sent to POW camp (unknown).

I have very few details about my Fathers WW1 involvement, except that he was born 31 October 1898, he lied about his age (he was 16 years of age) when he enlisted in British Army, I understand my father enlisted in British Army in London during 1914, I do not know if he used his real name when he enlisted, however I am guessing he did as medals and disembodied document I have found online show regimental # 129439.

I have my fathers WW1 service medals, the regimental number engraved on the medals is, 129439, Pte. Frank Harrison Bibby.

I have searched many sites including ICRC and can find no record of POW by name of Frank Harrison BIBBY or regimental # 129439.

I have searched under many surname spelling variations for Bibby, the only record I have found on ICRC that may possibly be my Father is recorded as F Bibby with regimental # S927, with repatriation documentation from Switzerland. I have attached to this message POW document for F Bibby regimental # S927 and medal card.

Is it possible that anyone on this forum can shed any further light on my desperate search for my Fathers WW1 POW records?

Is it possible POW soldier with regimental # S927 is the same person as soldier Frank Harrison Bibby with regimental # 129439?

From my online research it appears many soldiers during WW1 had more than 1 regimental service number, also many WW1 service records were lost, burnt or damaged during the London bombings in 1940.

I have found online Medal Card and Discharged (disembodied) document for my Father, Frank Harrison Bibby regimental # 129439, however their size is greater than the allowable upload of 250KB.

Sadly we do not have any photographs of my Father until he immigrated to Australia in 1921. It is my hope and prayer with the details I have sent in this message and my plea for assistance will help you to help me in finding out my Fathers POW WW1 details.

I would be ever so grateful if you could please help me and respond to my request for information and or assistance. I am located in Perth, Western Australia.

Kindest regards

Graeme Bibby

F Bibby S927 - 14-15 Star Medal card - on Ancestory.pdf

F Bibby S927 POW record.pdf

[IPT]

Hi there,

You can rule out S/927, who was Fred Bibby, Rifle Brigade, who went to France 21/7/15.

Your father went abroad with the MGC some time after 1/1/1916, as he was entitled to Victory and BWM, but no star.

[Stebie9173]

Frank Harrison Bibby appears on the meda; cards and medal rolls as No. 129439 in the Magic Gun Corps. These state that his overseas service was only with the M.G.C. though he may have had service with another regiment or Corps prior to embarking. In fact, his medal roll states that he was "disembodied" on 7 March 1919. Disembodied is the term for discharge on completion of his term of service (typically "duration of war") for a soldier initially enlisted on Territorial Force terms of service. The M.G.C. was regular only and, in theory, this term shouldn't apply in the case of a man initially enlisted solely into the M.G.C.

Have you tried different spellings of the surname? I believe their may be various different spellings of your excellent surname?

Steve Beeby

P.S. A look at some records of M.G.C. men with nearby numbering would suggest a transfer to the Machine Gun Corps in December 1917 (both records I looked at No. 129483 and 129495 state 14-12-1917) and then posting overseas to a Machine Gun Battalion a couple of months later. One of these men had previously served in the Reserve Battalions of the 10th and 29th Battalions of the London Regiment.

[Earthangel]

Thank you IPT for your response. My initial searches for F Bibby with recorded POW records, came up with regimental number S927 who enlisted British army, rifle brigade, departing 21 July 1915 to France. I researched as much as I knew how to on these records to determine if possible was my father, alas it seems this avenue of search has led to a brick wall. To date I have come across 3 persons who had S927 regimental number.

The problem I have is we know so little about our Dad until he arrived in Australia in March 1921. Dad never spoke of his WW1 service, all we knew was he enlisted under age, was captured only months after being on the front and spent remainder of WW1 as POW, at the end of WW1 he migrated to Australia in 1921.

Many thanks IPT for taking the time to respond to my request for assistance.

Graeme Bibby

[Earthangel]

Thank you Steve for your response to my request for help to find my Dad's British army / POW records.

Researching and trying to find Dad's WW1 records is all new to me, makes it harder when I have so little detail to begin with - Dad never spoke of his WW1 service, all we know is he enlisted under age, captured only months after being on the front and spent remainder of WW1 as POW, at the end of WW1 he migrated to Australia in 1921.

It is only in recent weeks Dad's WW1 service medals have come to light, the regimental number engraved on the Victory and BWM medals is, 129439, Pte. Frank Harrison Bibby. No paperwork or records were with the medals, so I am trying to find Dad's records. To date I have been able to find online a copy of his Medal card and roll which states he was with MGC and disembodied 7 March 1919 as you have also confirmed in your response.

Steve can you tell me how I can find out if Dad may have had service or another regimental # with another regiment or Corps prior to embarking? From my reading and research since commencing my search for Dad's WW1 records I now understand the term disembodied is the term for discharge on completion of his term of service. It has been my understanding that when Dad enlisted underage (16 years) he was sent overseas and taken POW within a short space of time.

I am now even more confused with my searching for Dad's WW1 records, as what you have said confirms what I have been reading .... and as you have confirmed in your response .... the term disembodied was a term for a soldier initially enlisted on Territorial Force terms of service and the M.G.C. was regular only and, in theory, this term shouldn't apply in the case of a man initially enlisted solely into the M.G.C.

I have searched under all sorts of variations to spelling "BIBBY" with regimental # 129439 and found nothing at all. ICRC have no record of POW with regimental # 129439 .... from my research I have come to the understanding that many soldiers had more than one regimental number .... if this was the case with Dad, please how can I track it back and find out?

I am assuming Dad enlisted under his correct name even though he was underage, as his medal card / roll / medals give his full name.

I have still been unable to find Dad's enlistment form online through any of the available online agencies.

Maybe Steve I am not conducting my searches in the most efficient way with details etc, I have tried many combinations, of name, corps, dates, etc. I have been able to obtain copies birth / census / christening details all okay as well as migration papers .... it is the WW1 side that is giving me the headaches and frustrations with the many brick walls. Steve is there a way one can search for just the regimental number? I have tried this but not getting anywhere with this...... just a brick wall.

I will do some searches as you outlined with regimental numbers and see if I can back track, but not knowing where Dad started from as in date enlistment, corps etc is difficult.

Steve again I thank you for your time and effort in responding to my request for help and would truly appreciate any further input you can possibly offer to help me.

Kindest regards

Graeme Bibby

[Coldstreamer]

Have you tried asking the red cross .?

[Cpl Coleman]

As the years pass, family lore gets a little hazy... Might be mixing Frank's story of joining underage with his older brother Archibald Walter Bibby (1894-1981). In 1910, just shy of the age of 16, Archie enlisted for 12 years in the Royal Navy and served about 10 months before his dad purchased his discharge for £20 in 1911. Archie's WW1 medal card shows: Sapper, British War Medal and Victory Medal, Royal Engineers 558273 Pnr; London Regt (T) 2713; Royal Engineers (T) 3585.

Regards

Paul

[Earthangel]

Hello Coldstreamer

I have contacted ICRC via contact on their website, as yet have not had any response...... but hopeful in time they may respond and shed some light on my search for Dad's records.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my request and offering suggestion.

Graeme Bibby

[Earthangel]

Hello Paul

Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my request for assistance with Frank Harrison Bibby Reg. # 129439 WW1 records.

We already have Archibald Walter Bibby service details as you have kindly noted in your response ....... definitely no confusion between the two brothers Archie and Frank Bibby.

Unlike today when it comes to talking about family / history and children being allowed to ask questions (in earlier times it was children were seen but not heard) all we know for sure is that Frank Bibby enlisted at 16 years of age in British Army, served overseas prior to being taken as POW, and disembodied 7 March 1919.

I was only 15 when Dad passed away in 1960 and my 2 brothers (20 years + older than me) who served in Australian air force during WW2 were only told the information we currently know of Dad's WW1 British military service. When Dad passed away in 1960 my Mother gave me the Napoleon 111 coin that Dad carried with him all during WW1 and POW, Dad had said it was his good luck charm as such.

I will continue with my search for Dad's WW1 military service and POW and hope one day (sooner than later) I will be able to put the many missing pieces together and complete the jigsaw.

Thanks again Paul for your response .... if you should happen to come up with any further info that might help in my search I would be most grateful to hear from you.

Kind regards

Graeme Bibby

[IPT]

It is possible that your father enlisted with another regiment early in the war, but was found out and discharged for making a misstatement about his age. Such was the case with 129402 Herbert William May http://www.stockwellwarmemorial.co.uk/names-index/herbert-william-may

Incidentally, Herbert May is the only casualty I spotted with a similar service number. He was killed in October 1918. Although service numbers can be very confusing, and the MGC is notoriously difficult to research, this may indicate that men in this number range went out very late in the war,

There are surviving service papers online for 129477 Arthur Hawkins. It might be worth taking a look in case they contain any clues as to enlistment and embarkation dates.

[Earthangel]

Thank you IPT for providing me with another avenue for my search for (Dad's) Frank Harrison Bibby WW1 records .....

I have been days searching and scrolling through thousands of documents / pages that have service men with the same regimental # as my Dad 129439 ..... I dont understand how multiple people can be given the same regimental #

Searched on Ancestory.com for regimetal # 129439 and got the following list .......... however Frank Harrison Bibby name does not find any list of record with service # 129439

Harry Cotterill - Cheshire Regiment, Labour Corps, Royal Air Force - Regimental number: 4307, 503425, 129439

James B Gerrard - Royal Garrison Artillery Regimental number: 129439

Arthur Sharly - Royal Field Artillery - Regimental number: 129439

Alfred H Skinner - Army Service Corps - Regimental number: A/129439

Albert C Stonebridge - Bedfordshire Regiment, Royal Engineers - Regimental number: 5675, 129439

John E Walker - Royal Fusiliers - Regimental number: GS/129439

There is every likelihood Dad's WW1 service records were lost / destroyed in London bombings 1940.... however I feel the records are still available ... maybe I am just not finding anything due to the various search criteria i have tried to date ....

Dad's WW1 index card reads .............

Medal card of Bibby, Frank H

Corps: Machine Gun Corps Regiment

Reference: WO 372/2/133340

Description: Medal card of Bibby, Frank H

Corps: Machine Gun Corps

Regiment #: 129439

Rank: Private

Date: 1914-1920

Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Legal status: Public Record

I have tried searching on various criteria with the reference number: WO 372/2/133340 ....taken from medal index card ..... to date have not found anything.

I just seem to be hitting one brick wall after the other

Thanks again IPT for your assistance .... very much appreciated.

Regards ..... Graeme

[ss002d6252]

I have been days searching and scrolling through thousands of documents / pages that have service men with the same regimental # as my Dad 129439 ..... I dont understand how multiple people can be given the same regimental #

WW1 numbering is complicated - it wasn't until post WW1 that unique numbers started to be issued as a general measure.#

There is every likelihood Dad's WW1 service records were lost / destroyed in London bombings 1940.... however I feel the records are still available ... maybe I am just not finding anything due to the various search criteria i have tried to date ....

The MGC records were hit very hard in 1940 - surviving MGC records are far lower as a % then those of other units.

Craig

[Earthangel]

Thank you Craig for your response.

I had come across you estimator "goo.gl/EcIWLo" a few weeks ago, however I am sorry I cannot figure out how to use the estimator

I had gathered from my reading many records in my search the MGC WW1 records suffered a heavy impact with loss / damage from 1940 London bombings... it is such a shame really that so much historical data was lost for our service men and women.

Craig can you tell me is there any way I can track any further information from the reference number which appears on Bibby, Frank H (Machine Gun Corp) medal card index. Reference: WO 372/2/133340

I feel I have exhausted every avenue in my search for Frank Harrison Bibby Regimental # 129439 WW1 records .... I feel totally defeated and a great sense of letting down my dad in not being able to find his WW1 records.

Thanks again Craig.

Graeme Bibby

[ss002d6252]

I had come across you estimator "goo.gl/EcIWLo" a few weeks ago, however I am sorry I cannot figure out how to use the estimator

It's only usable if a man died and you know how much war gratuity he was paid (the gratuity was paid based on length of war time service).

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Craig can you tell me is there any way I can track any further information from the reference number which appears on Bibby, Frank H (Machine Gun Corp) medal card index. Reference: WO 372/2/133340

That's the National Archive's own reference number for the medal card record for Frank, it gives no more information.

Craig

[Earthangel]

Thanks again Craig for that information,you have been very helpful.

Graeme

[IPT]

In addition to the 2 MGC men that Stebie has mentioned above in post #3, I found a few more;

129425 John Andrew Brown, attested 10/5/1916, was called up to 3/7th London 23/1/1917, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917 and went to France with the MGC around 24/3/1918.

129456 John Henry Dean called up to London Regiment 14/10/1917, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917, went to France 1/3/1918.

129477 Arthur Hawkins attested 24/10/1916, joined 100th Training Bn 18/12/1916, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917, went to France 4/3/1918 (Captured 24/3/1918 - Released 29/11/1918.

We now have 5 men in that number range who all transferred into the MGC on 14th December 1917, and went abroad around March 1918.

[johnboy]

His 6 digit service number was probably allocated early months of 1917 when the TF was renumbered. This could tie in with London Regiment [all TF].

By 1917 he would have been 19yrs old and eligible to be sent overseas.

[SteveE]

His 6 digit service number was probably allocated early months of 1917 when the TF was renumbered.

Not all six-digit numbers are the result of Territorial Force renumbering. His six-digit number has already been shown (by Stebie and IPT) to have been allocated in December 1917 and has nothing to do with the Territorial Force renumbering of early 1917. The MGC, and some other Corps, had six-digit numbers in their 'regular' series of numbers.

[johnboy]

129425 John Andrew Brown, attested 10/5/1916, was called up to 3/7th London 23/1/1917, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917 and went to France with the MGC around 24/3/1918.

129456 John Henry Dean called up to London Regiment 14/10/1917, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917, went to France 1/3/1918

These men would have had TF numbers before transfer?

The MGC, according to LLT were not formed until April 1917 so were they using 6 digit numbers as a consequence of the renumbering?

[SteveE]

129425 John Andrew Brown, attested 10/5/1916, was called up to 3/7th London 23/1/1917, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917 and went to France with the MGC around 24/3/1918.

129456 John Henry Dean called up to London Regiment 14/10/1917, transferred to MGC 14/12/1917, went to France 1/3/1918

These men would have had TF numbers before transfer?

The MGC, according to LLT were not formed until April 1917 so were they using 6 digit numbers as a consequence of the renumbering?

As London Regiment men, yes they would.

As for the MGC these men were using six-digit numbers as a result of a transfer to the MGC, not because of the TF renumbering, MGC numbers allocated from their 'regular' series and had nothing to do with the TF renumbering......

[johnboy]

Was the renumbering during 1917 responsible for MGC using 6 digits when they were formed? It seems that from the outset they were probably allocated a block of 6 digit numbers.

[SteveE]

No, the 1917 Territorial Force renumbering had nothing whatsoever to do with the MGC using six-digit numbers, the MGC simply started using six-digit numbers in their 'regular' series once 99999 had been reached.

[johnboy]

Thanks.

[Earthangel]

Thankyou to SteveE, IPT and Johnboy for your responses over the past days .... I really appreciate your assistance and guidance to help me find dad's WW1 records....

Other than searching under name spelling variations, using wildcards and the like, what other criteria could I search for to find previous regiments and reg. # (s) for Frank Harrison Bibby # 129439, DOB 31 October 1898

Many thanks to all who have helped me in my search.

Graeme

It is possible that your father enlisted with another regiment early in the war, but was found out and discharged for making a misstatement about his age. Such was the case with 129402 Herbert William May http://www.stockwellwarmemorial.co.uk/names-index/herbert-william-may

Incidentally, Herbert May is the only casualty I spotted with a similar service number. He was killed in October 1918. Although service numbers can be very confusing, and the MGC is notoriously difficult to research, this may indicate that men in this number range went out very late in the war,

There are surviving service papers online for 129477 Arthur Hawkins. It might be worth taking a look in case they contain any clues as to enlistment and embarkation dates.

I thought I might have been on to something, given the above details you gave me in addition to other names to research..... alas I continue to bang into brick walls......

I can't help but feel the missing bit of the jigsaw is there but I just cannot see it ... maybe I am not using the search engines in the correct way - Ancestory.com & ICRC, in fact all the websites have tutorials, FAQ's, etc for novices like myself ..... I have been unable to pick up on, or identify anything further for Frank Harrison Bibby # 129439 from the similar regimental # and soldiers transferred to MGC, Postings, movements, etc .....

Graeme Bibby