mva Posted 4 October , 2017 Share Posted 4 October , 2017 Hello from the Somme, Reading the posts, I have tried to find out why MORISEL suddenly appears - and didn't find. Morisel ist next to Moreuil, I often go there - if I can be of any help, do feel free to ask ! kind regards from the Somme, martine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 4 October , 2017 Share Posted 4 October , 2017 2 hours ago, mva said: Hello from the Somme, Reading the posts, I have tried to find out why MORISEL suddenly appears - and didn't find. Morisel ist next to Moreuil, I often go there - if I can be of any help, do feel free to ask ! kind regards from the Somme, martine Martine, In post 133 Otto Fernand is recorded by the VDK as having two graves - Sorel le Grand and Morisel. I asked the question in post 150 to confirm whether this is correct, it could be a mistake in the VDK database. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 16 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2017 Well, sometimes one is lucky. Got it - and even some interesting text on the back. It says: Fins, d. 18.1.17 Liebe Eltern! Einen frommen Gruß sendet Euch alle Karl. Es geht mir soweit gut, gesund bin ich auch, hoffe auch dasselbe von Euch. Hier ist der Hauptverbandsplatz von Fins, es ist eine Kirche u. Krankenhaus. Gruß an Fritzle.“ Fins 18.1.17 Dear parents! Best regards sends you your Karl. I am all right, still healthy, which I hope for you as well. Here is the main dressing station from Fins, it is a church and a hospital [the castle, I assume, seen on the photo]. Greetings to Fritzle. See also #11 the text by Ernst Jünger, he mentions also the church (see also post #120). Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 16 October , 2017 Share Posted 16 October , 2017 This is a picture card from one of the many Württemberg series. This S series dates from 1916 and shows views from the Somme front. I am making lists of the different series. The previous card S.70 shows a view of Gouzeaucourt. I haven't found 72 or 73 yet, 74 is a view of Sailly-Saillisel. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 16 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2017 Ah, there are whole series! I have been wondering about the numbering. Thanks for the info. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted 18 October , 2017 Share Posted 18 October , 2017 The Landesarchiv Stuttgart has a portrait of Hauptmann d.L. Fernand. It also gives a death date of 27 August 1918. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 18 October , 2017 Share Posted 18 October , 2017 (edited) Wow Glen, how great that is to get an image of Otto Fernand - I suppose it does not matter where he is buried. At the present time is is not known where he is at rest. Could he be with Gustav at Fins - or at Morisel ? But it is still a puzzle and it would be nice to solve the mystery of a man with two graves. Edited 18 October , 2017 by Martin Feledziak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 19 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2017 Well, that’s very interesting. I can add that I contacted the archive in Stuttgart once again 2.5 weeks ago to get some answers to some of the questions. I have paid for the inquiry, they copied some material (I do not know what yet ) and I look into my letter box every day with great interest. Hopefully more to come. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 19 October , 2017 Share Posted 19 October , 2017 2 hours ago, AliceF said: Well, that’s very interesting. I can add that I contacted the archive in Stuttgart once again 2.5 weeks ago to get some answers to some of the questions. I have paid for the inquiry, they copied some material (I do not know what yet ) and I look into my letter box every day with great interest. Hopefully more to come. Christine I hope they copied the Kriegsrangliste as it may say where he was buried. (only the Kriegsstammrollen (NCOs and men) are online, not the Kriegsranglisten (officers)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 19 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2017 Hi, got it via mail. Unfortunately I have explicitly no copy right so I can not put the original documents here, but the information. It was absolutely worth any cent. 1. And for me most important: I got a 1.5 page handwritten description of the field hospital 255 in Fins from the 21.8.-31.1.1918. Which definitely confirms now that this field hospital was in Fins at the time when Gustav died. I'll try to read it tonight. FL 255 relieved FL 138. 2. I got 7 pages on Otto Fernand (Personal-Bogen). So now I can see how it looks like when information is still available and not burned in Potsdam 1945 (but I guess there are not 7 pages on everybody). He was wounded 22.8. in Albert (Lungendurchschuss?) and died 27th of August in FL 188. And was buried 28th of August at 5 o'clock in the morning in the Soldatenfriedhof in Fins. Even the grave number is given with 460. 3. I asked for documents about Karl Mueller (RIR 248), the only other soldier I knew of who died in FL 255 at the time - no known grave. He was wounded in Moislains 25th of August, died in FL 255 29th of August. Buried in Soldatenfriedhof Fins (no grave number given). Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 19 October , 2017 Share Posted 19 October , 2017 Christine, They have personal files about most fallen Württemberg officers in Stuttgart as the relatives were asked to privide information after the war (some files are indeed more elaborate than others). Luckily the Württemberg archives were not in destroyed in 1944/45. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 19 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2017 7 hours ago, AOK4 said: Luckily the Württemberg archives were not in destroyed in 1944/45. Yes! Great that this source still exists. Here a summary of the text from FL 255 in Fins the last days of August in 255. The field hospital was then not situated in the castle shown in # 153. The text describes the chaotic situation one could expect in these days of retreat. FL 255 was these days situated in barracks – I add a scetch of the photo that was included in the scans I got. Since the space was not sufficient tents were erected preventing that soldiers have to stay outside. The road to Etricourt was nearby and caused problems because of all the dust. Wounded soldiers were carried from the operation barracks to other buildings on stretchers. Exhausting work carried out mostly by prisoners. The number of wounded and sick was numerous; one night 245 new soldiers were counted. The medical service was by no means sufficient. First at the 28th new surgeons arrived and the situation got somehow more under control. That was the day Gustav died. In the night from the 29th to the 30th the field hospital was evacuated partly by train, which arrived in the last minute in the morning of the 30th. At noon of the 30th FL 255 leaves Fins while the first shells hit near the now empty field hospital. The FL 255 march towards East to Lesdain also seeing planes that drop bombs some 100m away near Gouzeaucourt [if I understood that correctly]. „Fins 21.8.-30.8. Feldlaz. 255 löst in Fins das Feld Laz. 138 ab. Marsch xxx in glühender Sonnenhitze. Das Laz. in Fins lag sehr ungünstig direkt an der sehr stark befahrenen Straße nach Etricourt, daher sehr staubig. Sehr weitläufig gebaut, nur 3 kleine Baracken lagen in der Nähe der Operationsbaracke. Der Verkehr aus der Operationsbaracke konnte nur durch einen umfangreichen, sehr anstrengenden Trägerdienst (meist engl. u. franz. Kriegs- Gefangene) aufrecht erhalten werden. Zur Schaffung der durchaus notwendigen Aufnahmeräume wurden 2 Zelte neben der Operationsbaracke auf- gestellt. Durch diese Maßnahme konnte vermieden werden, dass Verwundete während des Nachts im Freien hätten abgestellt werde müssen. Der Zustrom von Verwundeten u. Kranken zum Lazarett war ein ungeheurer. Er setzte sich zusammen aus Zugängen von der Front sowohl als vorwärtigen in Klämmung [?] begriffenen Lazaretten. Dazu kamen noch von den benachbarten Krankenxxx überwiesene Kranke und alle die Infektionskranken, da das Lazarett auch als Seuchenlazarett bezeichnet war. Gegenüber diesen aus so verschiedene Quellen xxx ungeheuren Zustromes von Verwundeten u. Kranken – in einer Nacht wurden 245 Aufnahmen u. xxx gezählt – musste die ärztliche Versorgung versagen, obwohl sowohl der interne Arzt des Laz. xxx (xxx, xxx xxx) und eine xxx Station übernommen hatten. Erst der 28.VIII.18 brachte Abhilfe durch die Kommandiers der Chirurgen Stabsarzt Zxxx (Oberarzt xxx xxxx), Oberarzt G.xxx (F.L.253) Oberarzt Volkmann (9.K.3i). Durch die xxx Xxx Arbeit dieser Herren konnte fast alles Rückständige aufgearbeitet werden. In der Nacht vom 29. auf den 30.VIII.18 erfolgte der Abtransport der Verwundeten zunächst durch Sackwagen[?] nach den Feldlazaretten in Gouzeaucourt u. morgens mit Lazarettzug, der noch in letzter Stunde eingetroffen war. Infolge der Lage mussten alle Verwundeten, auch die eigentlich nicht transportfähigen verladen werden. Am 30.VIII. um ½ 12 vormittags marschierte das Laz. befehlsmäßig ab. Eine Stunde später schlug die erst feindliche Granate über das Laz. weg südwärts ein, nachdem schon am Morgen eine Anzahl Granate vorwärts des Laz. eingeschlagen waren. Auf dem Marsche hinter Gouzeaucourt bei Gonnelieu fielen etwa 100m seitlich feindliche Fliegerbomben, ohne Schaden anzurichten, nieder. Das Laz. marschiert über Vaucelles nach Lesdain, wo es im eigenen Quartier unterkam.“ Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 19 October , 2017 Share Posted 19 October , 2017 Great information Christine. And it all supports what we have been thinking. And that is a nice 3D sketch, did you do it ? Also we have a photograph of Otto Fernand, in an earlier post, so we should also all see Gustav too He is your photograph from the first page. ( It is a black and white image to which I have added the colour - so if it is wrong it is my fault ) Gustav is on the right. We do not know who is to the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 13 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2017 Hi, Martine went to the German Cemetery in Morisel today and found the second or better first grave of Otto Fernand. One man two graves, still odd. I do not think there were any reburials involved here, but I can try to check. I post here a photo, with kind permission of Martine. Thanks a lot Martine for helping with this! Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 13 November , 2017 Share Posted 13 November , 2017 The perfect mystery - Otto FERNAND - The man with two graves. And now we can see the pictures of the headstones which confirms it. I can not think of possible explanation which could make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 I am not amazed at all and know of a few dozen double German graves on the German cemetery of Menen. The main problem for the Germans was that they were not in charge and sometimes not informed of the reburials in the 1918 to 1926 (roughly) period. They were then given registers made up by people who sometimes barely knew German. Then, when the Volksbund came in and took over responsibility, most of the archival records had been destroyed (kept by the ZAK, not by the Volksbund) in the last year of the war. So, the Volksbund only had and has the different cemetery registers to use. Iin France these were usually several copies from 1918 (post-war copies of the wartime registers in most cases) up to about 1940 (later copies were made by the French war graves service as they were in charge). In Belgium there were mostly only registers from the 1930's made by the German war graves service in Belgium. The Volksbund does not have much original sources about soldiers or cemeteries (as they were only given the responsibility after WW2), hence the often problematic identifications. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mva Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 1 hour ago, AOK4 said: ZAK, @AOK4 what is ZAK ? - thanks for your answer, martine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 Zentralnachweiseamt für Kriegsverluste und Kriegergräber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mva Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 @AOK4 thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 14 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2017 (edited) On 2017-10-02 at 22:31, charlie2 said: The history of RIR 247 records that Otto Fernand died on 22.08.1918 at Bray sur Somme. It further records that he was wounded in the chest and was taken to an Aid Post in Carnoy 4 hours ago, AOK4 said: I am not amazed at all and know of a few dozen double German graves on the German cemetery of Menen. I am maybe not surprised that there can be mistakes, but with a person of that rank and that special name - I find it somehow odd. Now we have also two different sources. Charlie wrote that the regimental history give the 22.8. as date of death, while the Personalbogen gives the 27.8. (see below). If I remember correctly so did the Personalbogen contain information given by relatives after the war and is not first hand source - if I understood you correctly, Jan. So that might be the information the relatives got and why the grave number is given. Feldlazarett 188 might be another option to look at. I located it in Fins, but that might be a circle conclusion since I had Fernands grave there to start with. Looking at Martin's map it is not likely to assume that he was buried in Morisel at the time? Moving his body from Carnoy in the direction towards the front. Charlie, could you maybe so kind to post the original text form the regimental history? I know this is probably not to solve and a bit off the topic of the thread - but the grave of Otto Fernand was somehow the key to Gustav's grave location. Well, the original German grave number 460 is still correct - I assume - who ever might be buried there. Christine Edited 14 November , 2017 by AliceF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 14 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2017 Maybe someone could be so kind and post a map with the location of the front line at the time (20th-30th of August - I know it was fast moving) in the area (Albert, Hardecourt, Bray-sur-Somme). I would also like to try to understand why Gustav was wounded at the 26th of August in Hardecourt aux Bois (or better try to understand the context). So thanks for any help regarding this. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 Very Good points Christine. I agree with all of them and that is why I consider it a perfect mystery. So here is a very basic map for discussion. I see the dotted red line for 8th August 1918. The line for the 26th is also shown. Then the big dashed red line for 4th September 1918. so it gives a very basic overview so we just need to get the finer details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 (edited) This is very, very basic. I have roughly added Morisel, Carnoy, Hardecourt and Fins onto the map in green. Edited 14 November , 2017 by Martin Feledziak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 From the Regimental history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 Hello, Hauptmann Fernand was wounded near Bray on 22 August 1918, taken to an aid post in Carnoy and from there evacuated down the medical lines and ended up in Feldlazarett 188 where he died on 27 August 1918. He was then buried the next day in Fins. It is not incommon to use the date of a man being wounded as date of death in regimental histories. Beware, regimental histories are basically not sources, they are based on war diaries, memories of those involved etc. I am quite sure that his file in the regimental Kriegsrangliste will confirm what is in the Personalbogen. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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