Gustav Gehrt

[Martin Feledziak]

1 hour ago, mva said:

I am planning a photo tour

 

Greeting Martine,

That is very kind of you but I am sure Christine will have made a photograph.

[AliceF]

On 25/09/2017 at 20:41, Martin Feledziak said:

Ok - Understood. Do you have a photograph for the plot of Otto FERNAND, Plot 6 row C grave 1 ( German Grave 460 ).

Yes, see below!

 

On 25/09/2017 at 20:54, mva said:

As I live about 60 km from Fins, I could go there and take pictures

I am planning a photo tour (to take pictures of graves in the region), so it would not be a problem !

kind regards from the Somme, martine

Thanks very much!!! But I think I have most of what I need. There are also on TWGPP (headstones with names, not headstones of unidentified).

Christine

 

 

 

[mva]

hello again,

here is the 'tour' on my agenda for the 1st half of October (Fins would be the last one on the right) - the black spot is where I live. So, if you think you want a supplement, no problem !

by the way : the 'tour' is for German cemeteries where Belgians are buried (Eupen Malmédy was german at the time, now it is Belgium)

kind regards from the Somme, martine

 

[AliceF]

18 hours ago, mva said:

So, if you think you want a supplement, no problem !

Thanks very much for your kind offer! I'll let you know if I need help.

Christine

[AOK4]

Fernand, Otto, led. Kaufmann, Hauptmann der Landwehr II und Bataillonsführer III. Bataillon Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 247, geboren 28.5.1881 in Stuttgart, gestorben 27.8.1918 im Feldlazarett 188 Fins bei Albert (Frankreich).

 

Source: Ehrenbuch der Gefallenen Stuttgarts 1914-1918

[AliceF]

 

On 26/09/2017 at 19:40, AOK4 said:

Fernand, Otto, led. Kaufmann, Hauptmann der Landwehr II und Bataillonsführer III. Bataillon Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 247, geboren 28.5.1881 in Stuttgart, gestorben 27.8.1918 im Feldlazarett 188 Fins bei Albert (Frankreich).

 

Source: Ehrenbuch der Gefallenen Stuttgarts 1914-1918

Thanks very much, Jan!

 

I summarise below in the Excel file for whom I found connections to Fins or to a field hospital in Fins at the relevant time.

For 47 soldiers buried in Fins I could find some mentioning of Fins or a field hospital (F.L. 93, 138, 188, 253)

Source mostly: www.denkmalprojekt .org

Christine

Fins_3.csv

 

[Martin Feledziak]

The below image is of the German Cemetery at Sorel Le Grand. from February 1917.

It was destroyed not long after , I assume by shelling, and is no longer present.

Looking at the postcards from the web site most of Sorel was devastated and the church and town hall was also turned to rubble.

 

Looks like this photograph was made during the hours of darkness and perhaps snow on the ground. 

 

So these will be the soldiers who were moved to Maissemy. Depending on which graves were recognisable following a barrage on the village. 

 

It is now easy to understand why there is so much confusion about sorel and Fins.

 

 

copied from here.

https://sorel80.jimdo.com/

[AliceF]

A really gloomy photo of a war cemetery!

 

Yes, Fins New British cemetery in the parish Sorel-le-Grand and the former German cemetery in Sorel-le-Grand are mixed up. The VdK still uses today Sorel-le-Grand as name  for the CWGC cemetery in Fins. To attach an example I looked at Otto Fernand in the VDK database - and what did I find??? Two grave locations for Otto Fernand with two different days of death five days apart! What can I believe now? There is only one Otto Fernand in the Verlustenliste, the name so unusual especially with the combination of rank (Hauptman) that this has to be the same person - one grave location given in Fins the other in Morisel.

(The same applies also for Otto Eppinger with two locations given one for Fins and one in Maissemy, but I always assumed the Fins one was a mistake since the date of death in 1916 does not fit into the cemetery history - but you never know ).

 

Maybe I mentioned all this before - is some time I had looked into it.

 

Christine

 

 

 

 

 

[Martin Feledziak]

Oh Gosh - How can that be ?

 

That is an incredible puzzle, it is most unlikely that there were two Captain "Hauptmann" Otto FERNAND's killed in mid August 1918.

Does his entry in the verlustlisten give any more clues.

 

I am unable to search at the moment the database appears to be off-line .

[trajan]

Yes, a mystery here. One of the problems I have noticed with using VDK is that they do not give the man's regiment... It does seem highly unlikely that there were two men with the same name and rank who died within days of each other, but if VDK listed the man's regiment - as does the CWGC - that would be a starter to possibly resolving the matter.

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

There are plenty of errors in the Volksbund's database and on their cemeteries. I can give you plenty of names of people who have two graves etc.

 

Jan

[AOK4]

BTW there was only 1 Hauptmann Fernand (the name is very rare).

[Martin Feledziak]

So these entries all appear to be for Otto

( the colored surname links to the record )

 

Last name	First name	Ort	Liste	Reg. o.ä.	Status	GOV Id	Bemerk.	Geburtsdatum	Ausgabe	Datum	Page
	Fernand	Otto	Stuttgart	Württemberg 726	Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 247					2468	1919-07-22	30643
	Fernand	Otto	Stuttgart	Württemberg 242	Füsilier-Regiment 122					636	1915-08-14	8177
	Fernand	Otto	Stuttgart	Württemberg 407	Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 119			Berichtigung früherer Angaben		1029	1916-06-27	13134
	Fernand		Stuttgart	Württemberg 12	Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 119		object_190799			21	1914-09-12	138

Edited 30 September , 2017 by Martin Feledziak

[AliceF]

Hi,

I thought that there might be a number of mistakes in the VDK database - do not know why I am still surprised (I am not blaming the VDK, there can probably be very many reasons why things can get wrong in this database). Probably I did not expect this because Otto Fernand had a rank of a Hauptmann and it is such a rare name.

 

Still try to reconstruct what had happened (I am not desperate about this, just curious).

 

The grave registration report forms from 1920 did not list the German graves separately. So at that time no attempt was made to find out who was buried where (correct?, and I assume this was also not the task of the CWGC, which might even not have been the CWGC at that time). Example first sheet.

 

In 1924 a new inventory was made, now listing also German graves, partly even with German grave numbers (example 2nd sheet).

 

This was possible to do quite neatly for German graves until the middle of row 5B (until July 1918). From August on (middle of row 5B German graves were registered with "German PEG no number", but somehow the information about who is buried in which grave could be added later for some graves (almost whole of 5B) and was written with a pen next to PEG with no number (see sheet 3)

 

In 1925 a special cross was erected for 44 soldiers who where buried in August 1918, but where the exact grave location was not known. At that time the cross was at another location as today. So the headstones for these soldiers must have been put in place later. So there must have been a list available of soldiers, who were buried in Fins but the exact grave location could not be reconstructed. Not so strange maybe that the numbers could not be read anymore in 1924. (But PEG 353 from March 1918 was still readable in 1924).

 

Would it be possible that graves from July on had no cross and only numbers? So if the numbers were not readable the list of buried soldiers would not help to determine the exact grave location? Looking on the old photograph from Fins might indicate only one line of crosses (but not really possible to see).

 

And then there are 45 further unknown soldiers buried not mentioned at the special cross/memorial. 14 soldiers who died in March/April 1918 and 34 who died in August 1918.

 

Christine

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AOK4]

A few remarks:

The CWGC was responsible for the German graves and should have tried everything to put the proper names on the grave markers (the Germans were not allowed to work outside of Germany according to the Versailles treaty and responsibilities for the German graves abroad were given to the "Allied and associated graves commissions"). Some German graves may have been dug up during renovation works etc. later and identification may have been obtained at that point (because of identification discs with the bodies or the famous named paper inside a sealed bottle).

During the 1918 retreat a lot of the German documents were lost (war diaries of units etc.), so it is possible that the papers from the Gräberoffizier or from the Feldlazarett in charge during the period July 1918 were lost. It is very well possible that the numbered pegs were not replaced yet with the crosses, especially as the Germans had more urgent matters to deal with at that point.

Special memorials on British cemeteries, especially the ones to Germans tend to "wander around" all over these cemeteries over the years. I can give quite a few examples here. These special memorials are not grave markers, so there is no body underneath.

 

Just my views on this matter based upon my research and knowledge of how the German graves were dealt with.

 

Jan

 

[mva]

@AliceF just this, in reply to : " CWGC, which might even not have been the CWGC at that time (ie 1920) "

the CWGC ist 100 years old this year ! (2017)

[AOK4]

24 minutes ago, mva said:

@AliceF just this, in reply to : " CWGC, which might even not have been the CWGC at that time (ie 1920) "

the CWGC ist 100 years old this year ! (2017)

 

At that point it was still called IWGC.

[mva]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

 

At that point it was still called IWGC.

The change to the present name took place in 1960.

(the Empire (Imperial) was no more ! thus Commonwealth instead)

 

[AliceF]

Jan, thanks once more for your explanations!

And Martine for your comments regarding CWGC origin.

 

I have been speculating why Otto Fernands grave is the only known grave in rows 5C, 5D, 6B, 6C, and 6D and wondered if it could be that the family got a headstone in place?

Not sure how likely that would be and if it would have been possible in a British cemetery after the war. Maybe on the photo two headstones can be distinguished. The one to the left is quite "well" visible. The one to the right - I am not even sure if this is a headstone. Could also belong to row 6A (or some other row in that part of the cemetery).

 

Well, the only reference to an Otto Fernand in Stuttgart is a store in the centre of Stuttgart with the owners/business names of Heinrich and Otto Fernand. The store seems to have existed at least between 1919 and 1939. Could be relatives maybe wealthy enough to get engaged in Otto Fernand's burial place.

 

Christine

 

[AliceF]

Hi,

 

Pascal was able to provide information on what has happened to the castle in Fins where a German field hospital was situated in 1916 (see post #120). It was located next to the church, was destroyed and not rebuilt. The church was destroyed as well, I found out (but evidently rebuilt). You can see the building that was used as field hospital in the upper picture behind the church. Attach a screen print from google earth on what is remaining - an entrance gate.

 

There are quite a couple of interesting photos from Fins on sale on ebay.de. From 1917. But I do not really understand the prices 120 Euro for a photo? Is that usual? (SEK to Euro is about 10:1)

Christine

 

 

[Martin Feledziak]

There are some excellent postcards on the Sorel website.

https://sorel80.jimdo.com/sorel-d-antan/cartes-postales-anciennes/

 

It is not difficult to see why there was so much confusion as  the villages of Sorel and Fins look very much the same.

 

 

[charlie2]

The history of RIR 247 records that Otto Fernand died on 22.08.1918 at Bray sur Somme. It further records that he was wounded in the chest and was taken to an Aid Post in Carnoy.

 

Charlie

[Martin Feledziak]

Interesting Charlie,

Now the puzzle grows bigger.

 

Roughly 50 Km's between the 2 VDK possible burial sites at Fins or Morisel.

Bray and Carnoy are between both sites.

 

[AliceF]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎02 at 11:59, Martin Feledziak said:

There are some excellent postcards on the Sorel website.

Thanks, Martin! I agree!

 

19 hours ago, charlie2 said:

The history of RIR 247 records that Otto Fernand died on 22.08.1918 at Bray sur Somme. It further records that he was wounded in the chest and was taken to an Aid Post in Carnoy.

 

5 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said:

Roughly 50 Km's between the 2 VDK possible burial sites at Fins or Morisel.

Odd, isn't it?

 

Christine

[charlie2]

Has anyone actually seen or have a photo of the grave marker in Morisel?