the rank of Lance Sergeant

[mancpal]

Until very recently I had never heard of the rank of Lance Sergeant. Could somebody please tell me what was one and what insignia would be worn on the uniform to denote rank. Did every regiment have them or were they specific to certain ones. As I hadn't heard the term before in 20 odd years of research I would assume there weren't many of them comparatively but it would be far from the first time I've been shot down in flames

[Ron Clifton]

Hello mancpal

The establishment of an infantry battalion in the Great War included eight lance-sergeants, two in each company. Strictly speaking it was an appointment given to some corporals, rather than a rank in its own right.

They wore three stripes, as did sergeants.

Ron

[Medaler]

I believe in part that the idea behind it was that these men were "Deputy" Serjeants who wore the third stripe as a mark that they had been authorised to take over the roles and responsibilities of a full Serjeant in the event of his not being available. Traditions in different regiments may however have varied as to the exact practicalities of that.

[mancpal]

Thanks for prompt responses. This is hypothetical but on say a studio portrait would a lance sergeants uniform appear exactly as a "full" sergeant? On the subject of sergeants, did an acting sergeant (field promotion I understand) have worn the third stripe? If not how would his rank, temporary or not, be recognised?

Thanks

Simon

[bill24chev]

Thanks for prompt responses. This is hypothetical but on say a studio portrait would a lance sergeants uniform appear exactly as a "full" sergeant? On the subject of sergeants, did an acting sergeant (field promotion I understand) have worn the third stripe? If not how would his rank, temporary or not, be recognised?

Thanks

Simon

Lance Sergeant would have three chevrons as would an Acting Sergeant. I think the difference bet ween the two is the acting rank was paid as a Sergeant. Acting rank usually conferred until substantive rank confirmed by Regt. HQ or Manning and Records.

The Lance Sergeant rank/appointment still exists today in the Footguards, for all JNCO's equivalent to Cpl/Bdr in other Corps. I beleive it is an honour for Cpls of attached Corps such as REME or AGC to be awarded the courtesy rankof L/Sgt when serving with the Guards. Differentiated by White Chevrons for LSsgts and Gold for Sergeants in dress uniform. I think that full Sergeants also wear Red Sash in No.2 Dress

[teabreak]

Note of course that in Guards Regiments the rank of Lance-Sergeant is used instead of full corporal. I assume that this was the case in WW1. Whether it is true, I don't know, but it is said that this dates back to the 19th cent when it was decided that corporals in the Guards deserved the dignity of three stripes, hence the Lance-Sergeant rank (used here as a rank rather than an appointment). Hence also a very large sergeants mess in a Guards btn. Are you looking at a Guards regt?

Finally, the opposite is the case in Household Cavalry - here corporal (of horse) is used as the equivalent of 'sergeant'. So the effect is that there are no full corporals in the Guards, only sergeants; and no sergeants in the Household Cavalry, only corporals.

[Muerrisch]

The above is broadly correct but there are some nuances worth exploring.

Please allow me first to deal with lance appointments. These included lance corporal and lance sergeant but there were others although I will deal only with infantry of the line. These appointments were in the gift of the commanding officer [lieutenant-colonel] of a battalion and could be revoked at the stroke of a pen. This is in distinction to "ranks" which needed a formal procedure for revocation. The lance corporal was a substantive private who chose to accept the lance appointment. This immediately set him aside from his mates, and socialising with them was forbidden: usually his appointment was "unpaid" to see if he could cope. The CO was allowed as many unpaid as he wanted. Beyond that, a soldier might become paid lance corporal, and here the CO was rationed as to the number permitted.

Higher up the pecking order, full corporals, paid as such, could be appointed as lance sergeants. Again, the number of unpaid [that is, paid as corporals with no extra] was not limited, but the number of paid was governed by regulation.

On the subject of recognition, this was not possible in 1914-18 service dress, but immediately pre-war a substantive sergeant wore his scarlet sash in several orders of dress, whereas MOST regiments did not allow this privilege to lance-sergeants. I know of exceptions .............there always were in the British Army].

The lance-sergeant appointments continued to be made until after World War II, when lance-sergeant disappeared except in the Foot Guards [and, in disguise, in the Household cavalry] and lance corporal became a substantive rank in its own right.

[bill24chev]

The above is broadly correct but there are some nuances worth exploring.

Please allow me first to deal with lance appointments. These included lance corporal and lance sergeant but there were others although I will deal only with infantry of the line. These appointments were in the gift of the commanding officer [lieutenant-colonel] of a battalion and could be revoked at the stroke of a pen. This is in distinction to "ranks" which needed a formal procedure for revocation. The lance corporal was a substantive private who chose to accept the lance appointment. This immediately set him aside from his mates, and socialising with them was forbidden: usually his appointment was "unpaid" to see if he could cope. The CO was allowed as many unpaid as he wanted. Beyond that, a soldier might become paid lance corporal, and here the CO was rationed as to the number permitted.

Higher up the pecking order, full corporals, paid as such, could be appointed as lance sergeants. Again, the number of unpaid [that is, paid as corporals with no extra] was not limited, but the number of paid was governed by regulation.

On the subject of recognition, this was not possible in 1914-18 service dress, but immediately pre-war a substantive sergeant wore his scarlet sash in several orders of dress, whereas MOST regiments did not allow this privilege to lance-sergeants. I know of exceptions .............there always were in the British Army].

The lance-sergeant appointments continued to be made until after World War II, when lance-sergeant disappeared except in the Foot Guards [and, in disguise, in the Household cavalry] and lance corporal became a substantive rank in its own right.

I remember one Un-sodierly chap being threatened by CSM to be reduced from Private to "Lance private"

[Ron Clifton]

Eccles in the Goon Show once described himself as a Lance Private.

Ron