15 star with what unit (Leinster Regiment)?

[Jervis]

Good evening.
I am Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on who my ggrandfather Peter McAuley served with to get his 15 star.

My grandfather's MIC states he served with
5th Leinster regiment as #4827 and later with the labour corp southern command as #659512
Enlisted = June 1914 ; disembarked = April 1915 for western front ; discharged as wounded in Oct 1918

The confusion is the 5th Leinster were RDC and only served at home.
According to Ivor lee's book (no labour no battle) my ggrandfather 'regiment number was allocated late in the war - September or October 1918. Coincidentally similar to when he was wounded.

So I am trying to figure out who he actually served with to get his 15 star
Is it likely he was drafted into another front line Leinster batt without his record changing to reflect the new batt?
Or is it more likely he served in a labour corp forerunner (ASC) but not allocated reg #

I'd appreciate any insights.

Thanks
Jervis

[Loader]

Can you post MIC? Likely he went to another Bn of his regt when he went over & his star would be named to that unit. The LC did not really exist when the stars were eearned so don't think any stars ever issued to that unit. May be wrong but hope I'll be corrected if I am.

[johnboy]

You could try looking for him on 15star Medal Rolls.

[Guest]

You have a look at the medal rolls and see if you can figure it out johnboy. There's something strange about it.

Mike

[henryww1]

Name:

Peter Mc Auley

Military Year:

1914-1915

Rank:

Private

Medal Awarded:

1914-15 Star

Regiment or Corps:

Labour Corps

Regimental Number:

659512

Previous Units:

5 Leins. R. 4827 Pte

[Jervis]

Thanks for responses.
Having trouble posting images of mic & star roll. Exceeding file size limit.

The 15star roll states - labour corp. BUT the text that states " regiment were decoration was earned " is scratched out with pen and replaced with text to say "last served with". And in my grandfathers case says 5th batt Leinster. But 5th Leinster never left home. So it is odd.

I'll try reduce size of images & post.

[johnboy]

You have a look at the medal rolls and see if you can figure it out johnboy. There's something strange about it.

Mike

Seems he is the only one listed as 5th out of a batch who went to LC.

The numbers don't help, Service number 4897 was in 6th and 4896 was in 2nd. Looks likely to be a typo, but is it for 6th?

[kenf48]

He enlisted on 24 June 1914 going to France on the 2/4/1915 probably 2nd Bn. his terms of enlistment are a bit puzzling. Numbers in this series were also allocated to the Special Reserve Bn but these seem to be much earlier i.e. 4288 issued in October 1911 to Christy Green (discharged 1912 enlisted Athlone).

The 1st was in India when he enlisted, so it seems likely he was posted to the 2nd Bn when mobilized, speculation as to his age for active service overseas meant he was held back when the main body went on active service. 'Last served with' would probably be correct as men no longer fit for active service overseas would be posted to a Reserve Bn until recovery or another posting and the clerk making up the Roll may not have had the information as to which unit he was serving with when he qualified for the medal, hence the notation. It's too simple to dismiss it as a 'typo'.

However, pre-war the 5th Bn was designated the Special Reserve Bn. so I'd agree, it is confusing as the number does not correspond with enlistment as a regular according to Paul Nixon's site http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/leinster-regiment-1st-2nd-battalions.html

The 6th and 7th were not in F & F in April 1915, therefore he could only have been posted to the 1st or 2nd Battalion and on the balance of probability I'd choose the latter to research first. There are casualties in 42** series in the 1st and 7th Bns but they are more representative in the 2nd, 4286 Nooney 2nd Bn., and 4288 Aldridge 3rd Bn, though the latter died at home. See

The war diary for the 2nd should show a draft around the date, although circumstantial it would be persuasive http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352345

The 1st Bn Diary is also available for this period http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353482

You need a Leinster specialist to sort out the numbers and his enlistment, suggest you put the Regiment name in the thread title. These folk are trying to build a database of all those who served in the Regiment http://www.oldsite.leinster-regiment-association.org.uk/index.html

Ken

[Jervis]

Thank you very much for all your comments.

I am sure that the reference to 5th Batt is not a typo. I have two distinct civilian records from Oct 1914 & Jan 1918 that both state "5th Leinster" & "4827".So there is consistency.

I had not considered the notion that he could have been sent to 1st or 2nd Batts and then return back to the 5th Special reserve later in the war. But seems plausible, especially as he was wounded. In terms of the wounding is there any sources that I could researched to find out where it occurred, I know he got the silver war badge.

I will download war diaries for both 1st & 2nd for further info.

I do note from this site (http://www.offaly.ie/eng/Services/Libraries/Images/Leingster-Regiment-Lecture-Series.pdf) that the 1st batt went into the line at the second battle of Ypres on 2/4/15 which is the exact date on the MIC. So maybe it is more likely to be the 1st Batt.

I really have no idea why the enlistment number appears to come from circa 1911. My GGfather was in the milita in 1904 (5th Royal Dublin Fusillers), possibly he signed up again for 5th Leinsters - who I believe were milita pre-war.

Thanks Again for the help

Jervis

[johnboy]

I do note from this site (http://www.offaly.ie...ture-Series.pdf) that the 1st batt went into the line at the second battle of Ypres on 2/4/15 which is the exact date on the MIC. So maybe it is more likely to be the 1st Batt.

I think that you wrong making that assumption,

The date given for entry into theatre of war is sometimes given as the date men boarded a ship and sometimes the date they landed. Most men would have had a couple of days at rest camp/training camp before travelling to their designated battalion.

[Jervis]

Ok.I was wondering about what the "entry date" actually referred to. Thanks for clearing it up.

[kenf48]

I'd agree with Johnboy, on landing in France a soldier went first to the Base Depot and from there posted to an active service Battalion, drafts were usually received when a Battalion was out of the line, not when going up to the line.

Ken

[Jervis]

For completeness, I posted the images of MIC record and the 15th Star record itself.

[Jervis]

Ken,

It looks as though you are correct on the 2nd Batt Leinsters. The war diary for April 11th 4pm: "Draft of 22 others ranks join the Bn".

The dates and regiment match up really well. It would be very surprising if he was not one of the 22.

Thanks very much. I'll look forward to researching the 2nd Leinsters now.

Jervis

[Stebie9173]

Just to note that a few pages earlier there is a 4594 Thomas Hanlon also entered on 2-4-1915 listed as 2nd Battalion.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41804_611411_5988-00063/6026731?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3diwoservicemedalawardrolls%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26_F8007A65%3d659512%26_F8007A65_x%3d1%26_F00061C3%3dlab*%26_F00061C3_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d5k3%26pcat%3d39%26fh%3d1%26h%3d6026731%26recoff%3d77%2b78%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=41804_611411_5988-00056

Steve.

[Loader]

at the top of the MIC in red is the X with the dots, an asterisk, next to Leinster & the same X is on the stamped section by the star notice. I think this means he earned the star with the Leinsters & the star should be named with that unit. The rolls were made up by the units a man was serving with then & many are seen made up by the LC etc when the stars were earned with other units. Very confusing of course but that's how it is.

[kenf48]

at the top of the MIC in red is the X with the dots, an asterisk, next to Leinster & the same X is on the stamped section by the star notice. I think this means he earned the star with the Leinsters & the star should be named with that unit. The rolls were made up by the units a man was serving with then & many are seen made up by the LC etc when the stars were earned with other units. Very confusing of course but that's how it is.

Just to clarify all his medals would be named to the Leinster Regiment as he qualified for them all on the same day when he entered a theatre of war.

However the 14-15 Star was issued earlier than the 'war medals' and therefore are on a separate and earlier Roll to the BWM and VM.

A slip often accompanied the medals which stated:-

'To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.' (lifted from the forum at some time without attribution - sorry).

A soldier's final unit was responsible for the administration and distribution of the medals through the appropriate Record Office and therefore prepared and submitted the Rolls. As he apparently went from the 5th Bn Leinster which did not serve overseas to the Labour Corps I doubt he served overseas with the LC.

Now all we have to do is find him in the casualty lists...

Ken

[johnboy]

Does his 6 digit service number mean he was renumbered after 1/1/16? If so would his old number be shown on his MiC?

[kenf48]

Does his 6 digit service number mean he was renumbered after 1/1/16? If so would his old number be shown on his MiC?

As at post 1 the six digit number was allocated on transfer to the LC in 1918, as noted on the slip the Regimental particulars (I.e. including the number) inscribed are those held etc. therefore the number on his medals would be 4827

Ken

[johnboy]

Yes I understand that. I have seen MiC's that show 4 digit and 6 digit numbers with the same regiment.

So are we saying that he served with an unknown btn of the Leinsters until 1918?

[kenf48]

Yes I understand that. I have seen MiC's that show 4 digit and 6 digit numbers with the same regiment.

So are we saying that he served with an unknown btn of the Leinsters until 1918?

I thought that was the original question. I believe he enlisted in the 5th Bn (Special Reserve) and was probably posted to the 2nd Bn on active service. He was wounded and posted back to the 5th and from there to the LC.

Ken

[Safecontractor]

Jervis ;

Note that you're researching 2nd Leinsters around April, 1918 ... I have an uncle who served with them, Pte J W Hewiit 15297(originally joined Kings Shropshire Light Infantry), injured, then captured late March, 1918, died 6th April, 1918 and subsequently buried at Le Cateau Military Cemetery, Nord, France ( which I will be visiting this September)............any other information you discover I'd be delighted to have ...... apparently 2nd Leinsters were part of 16th Irish Div and were entrenched near Epehy north of St Quentin....I have a little more info.

Regards

EWMCG

[Jervis]

Just to close this out. I found two separate wounded records for my relative on the genealogist website. One of which confirm he was serving in the 2nd btn of the Leinsters. So thank you for the help in solving this.

[Jervis]

Hello EWMCG

Unfortunately I don't have any info on 2/ Leinster around 1918. I have been reading war diary for 1915 & 1916 period. There is a good book by Ernest Whitton on the Leinster regiment history which I intend to buy.

Good luck on the trip in September.

[Safecontractor]

Thanks Jervis .. sorry for delay .... just checked site ... will keep you posted ..... due to go from 2nd September, Euro Tunnel problems permitting !!!

If anyone wants pictures of a particular relatives last resting place at Le Cateau Military Cemetery, Nord, France, please send details and I'll be glad to help ( F.O.C.).

Regards EWMCG