Cavalry uniform & helmet - what regiment?

[headgardener]

Does anyone have any ideas about this man's regiment....? The helmet appears to have a 'GvR' cipher on the front. Otherwise, he's wearing a dark jacket with Austrian knots above the cuffs, plus light collars (possibly edged with differently coloured braid?) and light double-stripes down the leg of his breeches. Looks like 'ball' buttons, but not RHA surely...?!

Here's a close-up of the helmet:

His name appears to be 'Bert A. Head', in case anyone has any ideas as to his identity. I'm assuming that the photo dates from 1911-13, and that he must have had WW1 service. Knowing what regiment he was in may help to narrow down the candidates.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts or advice.....!

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd say it's earlier, as it looks like a Victorian crown, and the ball buttons and jacket would suggest an Hussar, but not the helmet.

I'd guess yeomanry, but (as usual), Frogsmile will come along and blow me out of the water

[headgardener]

Thanks Steve - I initially thought yeomanry, but I don't think I've ever seen them wear helmets like that! Agreed that it looks like a Victoria crown, but the cipher looks like GvR to my eyes.....?

Let's hope that Frogsmile drops in.....!

[Gareth Davies]

I am going to hazard a guess at Derbyshire Yeomanry.

[johnboy]

I know nothing of uniforms! But whilst doing something else I came across Albert Head Pte. 553 9th Lancers. His MiC shows entry to theatre 15/8/14.

Such an early entry date might tie in with being a prewar regular?

[Gareth Davies]

I am going to be bold; Derbyshire Yeomanry with 1847 pattern helmet.

[rolt968]

The GvR might suggest the Norfolk Yeomanry, but I'm not sure about the uniform.

RM

[headgardener]

I am going to be bold; Derbyshire Yeomanry with 1847 pattern helmet.

Very daring of you Gareth......! But will fortune favour the brave.....?! Let's see.....

I know nothing of uniforms! But whilst doing something else I came across Albert Head Pte. 553 9th Lancers. His MiC shows entry to theatre 15/8/14.

Such an early entry date might tie in with being a prewar regular?

The GvR might suggest the Norfolk Yeomanry, but I'm not sure about the uniform.

Thanks for these suggestions, lads.

Any more suggestions, anyone.....?

[Guest]

There is an anomaly here; Hussar tunic and dragoon helmet. Derbyshire Yeomanry VR cipher helmet plate (note QVC) is identical. Originally scarlet plume then white over scarlet horse hair plume (not common) in 1897. The Hussar tunic is an inconsistency. DY was a Corps of Dragoons Regiment

Also the DY had red double stripes on their overalls, not white or yellow.

Methinks a South Notts Hussar standing near the rather superior Derbyshire Yeomanry tin lid. Pure speculation. MG

[FROGSMILE]

I concede this is a very difficult one and few units mixed a dragoons helmet with a hussars dolman. I am wondering if it might be the Staffordshire Yeomanry Cavalry, although the colouring is difficult to square in black and white. Also the helmet shown (below) is an officers pattern, whereas the, other ranks worn in the OP photo would be (is) very simple in comparison.

Apparently, it was the other ranks button holes plus single (one top and one bottom), rather than doubled braided loops, that made the regiment's uniform so unique. Also notice how the ORs have no shoulder cord/strap. Compare with others to see what I mean.

[beestonboxer]

I have no idea, but would just like to say what a superb looking helmet in Frogsmiles post WOW.

[FROGSMILE]

An officers upper garment and an other rank in pillbox forage cap. Notice again the regiment's braided loops.

[FROGSMILE]

And a beautiful set of images showing the Staffordshire Yeomanry officers' ‘Attila’ (frogged full length tunic) to best advantage.

Edited 14 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Gareth Davies]

I still maintain he is a Derbyshire Yeoman. He is certainly not a Staffordshire Yeoman, the helmet plate in the OP is not the same as that in post #10.

Nice photos FS.

[FROGSMILE]

And another officers garment.

I still maintain he is a Derbyshire Yeoman. He is certainly not a Staffordshire Yeoman, the helmet plate in the OP is not the same as that in post #10.

Nice photos FS.

I agree there are some issues with the view of the OPs helmet. The problem is that the Derbyshire Yeomanry did not wear a frogged upper garment. Nor was the cuff embellishment the same.

Beautiful images courtesy of Bruce Bassett-Powell.

[FROGSMILE]

And here are the Staffordshire and Derbyshire Yeomanry other ranks helmets side-by-side for comparison.

[Gareth Davies]

I have definitely seen a photograph of what was described as a Derbyshire Yeo soldier in a frogged jacket (with Austrian knots) but for the life of me I can't find it again.

[Steven Broomfield]

Extensive Library?

As ever, I am amzed at this Forum and the knowledge contained therein.

[FROGSMILE]

I have definitely seen a photograph of what was described as a Derbyshire Yeo soldier in a frogged jacket (with Austrian knots) but for the life of me I can't find it again.

I think it was the undress stable jacket. I will try and find it and see if it is the one I think it is.

I have checked and no, it was for the Hampshire Yeomanry (Carabiniers). There just isn't anyone else, so far, that fits as well as the Staffordshire Yeomanry.

[Guest]

And here are the Staffordshire and Derbyshire Yeomanry other ranks helmets side-by-side for comparison.

Is it possible that the red plume and DY helmet is a marriage?..or possibly a bandsman's plume?

Edit. Clearly between 1897 and 1912 the plume changed from white over scarlet to scarlet ... see below.. which suggests the photo is pre 1912 at least and post 1897.

Edit 2. I would narrow the window to before 1910. Photos of the guidon presentation in 1910 show white over scarlet.

[FROGSMILE]

Is it possible that the red plume and DY helmet is a marriage?..or possibly a bandsman's plume?

Yes, the standard plume for the Derbyshire Yeomanry was white over red.

The standard plume for the Staffordshire Yeomanry was all white. A busby was apparently introduced as replacement head dress before the 2nd Boer War. See enclosed photo from 1905.

[Guest]

Yes, the standard plume for the Derbyshire Yeomanry was white over red.

But the guidon party in 1912 clearly are wearing scarlet plumes....which suggests a change between 1910 and 1912... i.e dating the photo in the OP to pre 1910. MG

[FROGSMILE]

But the guidon party in 1912 clearly are wearing scarlet plumes....which suggests a change between 1910 and 1912... i.e dating the photo in the OP to pre 1910.

Yes, I can see that Martin, we cross posted. I don't want to go down too much of a rabbit hole. I feel that the key aspect is the frogged upper garment in terms of answering the OPs question. Again, notice it's absence on the OR pattern of any form of shoulder cord or strap.

[Guest]

To add to the context, it seems that dragoon helmets and frogged upper garments were worn by at least two other Yeomanry units at some stage in their history.

Norfolk

North Somerset 1879-1888

Edit: The Staffordshire Yeomanry introduced the light dragoon tunic in 1859. There are photos from about 1860 showing the mix and a Simkin watercolour showing the same dated 1859. More photos dating 1871 and 1885 with a the six cord-loop hussars style tunic was worn in the Staffordshire Yeomanry from 1881. In every case the cords are white. At this time a trefoil knot replaced the Austrian knot*. It is noteworthy that the picture in the OP has a six-cord tunic with Austrian knots, and the colour of the cord is inconsistent with the colour worn by the Staffordshire Yeomanry.

The crossover period or some Yeomanry regiments seems to be the 1880s. One might reasonably assume the Yeomanry uniforms were not rigidly standardised until they were officially designated as Corps of Hussars, Dragoons or Lancers. Simkins' illustrations covering the whole of the Yeomanry published under the title Military Types as supplements to the Army and Navy Gazette between 1888 and 1902 shows no mixing of Dragoon Head-dress with Hussar style upper garments. By 1911 (at the coronation) uniforms seem to have fallen into one of the three main categories although exceptions remained if group photos are any indication.

Sources:

* The Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Force 1794-1914 by RJ Smith and R G Harris.

Yeomanry Wars: The History of the Yeomanry, Volunteer and volunteer Association Cavalry: A Civilian Tradition by Peter D Athawes.

Military Types: British Yeomanry Uniforms - Simkin

Uniforms of the Yeomanry Regiments by Evelyn

Note - the last reference source shows an Officer of the Hampshire Carabiniers in Dragoon Helmet and frogged 'coatee' dated 1890. Described in the text as the 'strangest mixture of any, even in the Yeomanry'. The uniform was adopted in 1884 and phased out after 1890, being replaced by more orthodox blue dragoon tunics. During this period the coatees were worn as stable jackets.

It raises the possibility of other Yeomanry regiments that made the transition from hussar to dragoons also keeping hussar style upper garments after the transition to Dragoons.

[Guest]

Hampshire Carabiniers from 1897