Can't find date of birth

[rustygirl54]

Hello all

New to this site so apolgies now if I go about this the wrong way.

Have been researching Private John Williams 6190 Royal Lancashire Reg. Found some of his army records on Ancestry, have his marraige certificate, death certificate but can not find his date of birth, From certificates year of birth is 1880 can only find him on the 1901 and 1911 census,he was born in Liverpool can not find baptism record for him in 1880 with father John Williams who was an engine driver.

Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks.

[helpjpl]

If you know his mother's first or christian name that may narrow down the search.

JP

[rustygirl54]

Thanks for reply. Don't know Mother's name only Father John Williams and a sister Agnes no date of birth for her.

[Terry_Reeves]

rustygirl

He was a pre-war regular soldier who enlisted in August 1899 aged 19 years and 5 months. His service record is on Ancestry.

TR

[woollamc]

Service records say that he was Catholic; you might try Liverpool Catholic Baptism register on Ancestry - they record the date of baptism, date of birth and names of parents.

C

[rustygirl54]

TR I have Army records from Ancestry where he enlisted on 9.11.1899 aged 19 and five months his army number is 6190 are we looking at same records?

Thanks.

[rustygirl54]

Woolamc. Have looked and looked on Liverpool Baptism at Ancestry i need Mothers name or definite date of birth as there are so many John Williams. His father was an Engine driver.

Thanks

[ss002d6252]

TR I have Army records from Ancestry where he enlisted on 9.11.1899 aged 19 and five months his army number is 6190 are we looking at same records?

Thanks.

Same man:

Craig

[rustygirl54]

yes that's the one I have dated 9/11/1899

thanks

[helpjpl]

If you can find sister Agnes on the census records you will get an approximate year of birth.

You can then look for a record of baptism for Agnes. It is possible she was baptised at the same church as her brother John.That information, and the details on her baptisms record i.e. mother's first name, address, and father's occupation, may help you track down John's baptism record.

JP

[rustygirl54]

JP

Can't find Agnes on any of the census records living with Father John, and/or just Brother John. Same as Baptism record for Agnes can't find a match with the parents that all so had a son John.

Thanks

[ralphjd]

Lancashire BMD has two born 1880 by this name one registered Kirkdale and one Toxteth Park.birth certs available for a fee. Free BMD - one born June qtr 1880 and two born Dec qtr 1880 Ralph.

[ralphjd]

His regiment was the Loyal North Lancs not the Royal Lancashire (post no1)

[ralphjd]

There is a christening record for a John Williams born 9th March 1880 Hale. father John mother Emily

[TEW]

Agnes' address when given as NOK (not sure of date for this) is 35a Landsdale Street, Liverpool. There doesn't appear to be such a street, I think it's a typo for Langsdale Street.

No. 35 Langsdale Street in 1911 is occupied by the Lunt family in LANCASHIRE - EVERTON - SOUTH EVERTON - 33

There are time consuming ways to find the address in previous censuses, e.g. in 1901 the address was occupied by Richard Romain and Emma Meathyard??

As above but district 6 page 45

1891 Census, Emma Meteyard is still present with in- law family Hesketh. No Agnes

1881 = Samuel McNeil and family. No Agnes

I did find a John R Williams who was 2 years old on 1881 census. Father was also John R Williams an Engine Driver. Address in 1881 was about 400 metres from Langsdale Street.

Mother was Mary which probably won't help thin things out on Liverpool Baptisms.

TEW

[TEW]

And taking the service record at face value he claims to be 19 Years & 5 Months old on 9/11/1899 which makes him born June 1880 and there is only one Liverpool GRO for such a man. Ancestry Link

Then there are 4 Agneses born in the same reg district 1880+/- 5 years. 1 can be discounted as being 3rd Q 1880.

8 Agneses if you expand it to +/- 10 years.

Find the Agneses on 1881 and later censuses and eliminate them if the father is not John and see who you are left with.

Or just buy the certificate!! for John Williams above.

TEW

[ss002d6252]

1879 birth for John R on 1881 census - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQ6M-231

Craig

[helpjpl]

Could this be John Williams junior's little sister Agnes?

Liverpool Catholic Baptisms:

Name: Agnes Williams

Birth Date: 29 May 1890

Baptism: 27 June 1890

Church: St Francis De Sales, 75 Hale Road, Liverpool

Father: Joannis Williams (John)

Mother's Maiden Name: Mariae Rice (Maria/Mary?)

Godfather: Francis Cox

Godmother: Sarah Agnes Cox

What year and where was John Williams senior born?

JP

[TEW]

JP

spotted that entry, thing is, if that's not her then there seems to be no other likely candidate from that source. In which case it's not guaranteed that John will be listed.

No John son of John and Mary Rice (and variants) baptised in Liverpool C1880.

rustygirl54 You say you have him on 1901 and 1911 censuses, can you provide a link or other method of getting to those entries. I can't seem to find a definite entry for him, too many to sift through.

TEW

[ralphjd]

TEW. Thanks for asking that question, saved me doing it, I cannot trace him either. Ralph.

[TEW]

Eventually found John, Annie and oldest child on 1911 census in Mooltan Barracks, N. Tidworth. WILTS - NORTH TIDWORTH - 13. Annie and child on page 21, John on page 10.

His age is down as 29 which makes him born 1882 which we're sure is wrong?

Annie is down as WIFE although they didn't marry till 1915, are they living in the married quarters????

All of John's children born out of wedlock, oldest one Eileen born in Kildare and Annie in Waterford.

1901 Census.

John in Shorncliffe Camp, Kent. Age is now 20 which makes it 1881.

Kent-Cheriton and Sandgate-District Shorncliffe Camp page 157.

No sign of Annie, probably still in Ireland.

TEW

[rustygirl54]

There is a christening record for a John Williams born 9th March 1880 Hale. father John mother Emily

Does it give father's occupation?

Thanks

[rustygirl54]

Agnes' address when given as NOK (not sure of date for this) is 35a Landsdale Street, Liverpool. There doesn't appear to be such a street, I think it's a typo for Langsdale Street.

No. 35 Langsdale Street in 1911 is occupied by the Lunt family in LANCASHIRE - EVERTON - SOUTH EVERTON - 33

There are time consuming ways to find the address in previous censuses, e.g. in 1901 the address was occupied by Richard Romain and Emma Meathyard??

As above but district 6 page 45

1891 Census, Emma Meteyard is still present with in- law family Hesketh. No Agnes

1881 = Samuel McNeil and family. No Agnes

I did find a John R Williams who was 2 years old on 1881 census. Father was also John R Williams an Engine Driver. Address in 1881 was about 400 metres from Langsdale Street.

Mother was Mary which probably won't help thin things out on Liverpool Baptisms.

TEW

Tew Thanks for checking out Langsdale St. on census for me, I can't see any obvious connection with names there!

I have got John R Williams 2yrs old on 1881 census, Bap. 14.Oct.1878 (born 5th Oct) father John Williams,an Engine driver. mother Mary.

I have father as John William Williams (not R.) an Engine driver, born 1849, married Mary Ann Calvin 14th. Oct. 1879.

They seemed to have two children born before marriage? Alice 1875 and John Richard 1878.

Have them all on the 1881 living at 545 Scotland rd, 1891 same address Alice is there but no John. 1901 & 1911 still living at same address no sign of Alice or John. 0n 1911 census it states they had two children one dead, one alive.

So could Alice be Agnes on the Army form? Could she have died between 1891 and 1901?

1891 CENSUS Private John Williams 19 born abt 1872 The Barracks Winchester serving with Kings Royal Rifles which I think were a Miltia Regiment. I know the date of birth is not right but could John have run away and joined the Milita lying about his age? When he joined the Regular Army in 1899 he said he was a reserve to the Militia??

Thanks for your time and help it's much appreciated.

[rustygirl54]

And taking the service record at face value he claims to be 19 Years & 5 Months old on 9/11/1899 which makes him born June 1880 and there is only one Liverpool GRO for such a man. Ancestry Link

Then there are 4 Agneses born in the same reg district 1880+/- 5 years. 1 can be discounted as being 3rd Q 1880.

8 Agneses if you expand it to +/- 10 years.

Find the Agneses on 1881 and later censuses and eliminate them if the father is not John and see who you are left with.

Or just buy the certificate!! for John Williams above.

TEW

Tew. have that birth certificate it's the wrong one father Joseph a Baker.

[rustygirl54]

Eventually found John, Annie and oldest child on 1911 census in Mooltan Barracks, N. Tidworth. WILTS - NORTH TIDWORTH - 13. Annie and child on page 21, John on page 10.

His age is down as 29 which makes him born 1882 which we're sure is wrong?

Annie is down as WIFE although they didn't marry till 1915, are they living in the married quarters????

All of John's children born out of wedlock, oldest one Eileen born in Kildare and Annie in Waterford.

1901 Census.

John in Shorncliffe Camp, Kent. Age is now 20 which makes it 1881.

Kent-Cheriton and Sandgate-District Shorncliffe Camp page 157.

No sign of Annie, probably still in Ireland.

TEW

Tew. yes that's John Williams on the 1901 and 1911 census,

John was in Ireland in 1907 when first chid was born, all 3 children born out of wedlock, can not find an Irish marraige, they did not marry till 1915 in Woolwich??? strange they were in married quarters???

As for John's wife Annnie Therese Cotter have found nothing at all before 1911??