12 January 1916, 12th Northumberland Fusiliers

[billc52]

Hi,

help needed please. My great-uncle Sgt Charles Gater 17569 was killed on 12th January 1916 and is buried at Cite Bonjean Military Cemetery at Armentieres in France.

Would like to know how he died, but I also have another problem.

I did a quick query on the CWGC site on who else was killed on that date and found five fusiliers from the 12th:

Sgt William DOCHERTY 13762

Pte John McSHANE 13700

Pte Robert ELSDON 24377

Pte Francis ROWLEY 20096

Sgt Richard WICKHAM 7176

When I did a check on who was buried next to who I found this:

IX D 93 Docherty

IX D 94 McShane

IX D 95 Elsdon

IX D 96 Rowley

IX D 97 Gater

IX D 98 Pte David LATIMER 13691 12th NF died 12 January 1915

IX D 99 Wickham

Also buried behind them were:

IX E 99 Pte Peter CURRY 22448 13th NF

IX E 100 Pte Arthur SWINDLEHURST 22319 13th NF

My first question is does anyone have info on what happened that night that three sergeants and three/four privates were killed. How?

I read somewhere on the internet about one of these guys and it said he had died from shellfire. Can this be verified?

Secondly, where they next to the 13th NF or was that another incident?

And thirdly, about Pte Latimer. I thought the 12th didn't arrive in France until September 1915 and he is buried between two men who died in 1916 Uncle Charles and Sgt Wickham.

I contacted the CWGC about this and received the following reply:

Our Ref: 112221
Date: 13 February 2015

Dear Mr Chapman
Thank you for your enquiry of 29 November 2014 regarding your great uncle, Serjeant C Gater, 17569, 12th Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Let me apologise for the delay in our response to your enquiry. Due to the commencement of the 1914-18 Centenary commemorative period, we have experienced a sharp increase in the number of enquiries received. Regrettably, as we are a small team, this has resulted in a backlog and I therefore apologise for the delay in my reply.

I would explain that all the online documents, including the ‘Register’ were viewed as working documents, which were added to or corrected as required. Amendments continued to be made to the documents until 2011, when the decision was taken to process any future corrections or changes electronically. Therefore, as our records are most consistent with Serjeant Gater's date of death being 12/1/1916, this is taken to be the correct date.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/276293/GATER,%20C

In the case of Private D Latimer, our records are most consistent with 12/1/1915 and therefore should be understood as the date of the death.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/276709/LATIMER,%20D

I hope this information helps.

Yours sincerely

Michael Greet
Enquiries Administrator

Before making this enquiry I looked on the CWGC site and there are now more documents attached to each soldier.

The Graves Registration Document - Register gives 12/1/1915

The Graves Reg. Doc. - Graves Reg. Reports (Finals) gives 12/1/1916

and the Headstone Documents - Headstone Schedules (Originals) give 12/1/1915

Is this a typo that has been carried on (either way).

Do you have evidence that I can pursue this further, that is if they will take any notice of me, if not me, then who has the clout to rectify this.

thanking you

Bill

[clk]

Hi Bill,

Re the date of death of Pte David Latimer 13691, there appears to be a Will available https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=latimer&SurnameGrants=latimer&YearOfDeath=1916&YearOfDeathGrants=1916&IsGrantSearch=False&IsCalendarSearch=False#soldiers showing 12th January 1916.

The Soldiers' Effects documents http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6129999_0030-00271/520526?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dlatimer%26gsln_x%3d1%26_F8007A65%3d13691%26_F8007A65_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults and http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6129999_0035-00235/97176?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dlatimer%26gsln_x%3d1%26_F8007A65%3d13691%26_F8007A65_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults also show the 12th January 1916 date.

If you aren't getting anywhere with the CWGC it might be worth contacting the In From the Cold Project http://www.infromthecold.org/

Regards

Chris

[Colin W Taylor]

Bill

The war diary refers to a trench raid on the night 11th-12th. There's a little too much to transcribe. It's worth downloading the diary from the national archives website for £3.50. It mentions an unnamed sergeant being killed outside the enemy wire but it could be any of the three.

I agree you are probably right but I understand the CWGC being cautious about amending details. There were many clerical mistakes and changing these willy nilly could have major impacts.

Worth checking out the battalion and brigade diary. Maps and everything.

Kind regards

Colin

[Graham Stewart]

The 12th January 1916 is indeed the correct date of death, as show in "Soldiers Died in the Great War", page 51 - and as you clearly state the Battalion didn't arrive in France unitl September 1915. The Battalion was formed in September 1914 at Newcastle and proceded to Halton Park, near Tring, Hertfordshire as part of 62nd Bde/21st Division. They moved into billets in Aylesbury, Bucks in the November of 1914, before returning to Halton Park in May 1915 and then onto Witley, near Waverley in Surrey in August 1915.

You will also probably find him in one of the Northumberland Fusiliers 1914/15 Star Medal Rolls, with a date of Disembarkation in France as probably the 9th September 1915 - this may also be reflected on his Medal Index Card.

[Graham Stewart]

Have downloaded his Medal Index Card and it appears he didn't actually qualify for the 1914/15 Star until the 2nd October 1915 - so it appears he was a late arrival.

[billc52]

Hi lads,

thanks for your help.

Chris, that's a bit more evidence that shows he died in 1916, will probably go straight to the infromthecold website, they'll probably have more clout than me.

Colin, yep I'll download that diary from the website.

Graham, once again, thanks for your advice, will do.

I mentioned a website for one of the dead that I found, this is it: http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/remember-on-this-day/1637-12-january-1916-pte-arthur-swindlehurst.htmlalso has a picture of him.

cheers

Bill

PS Graham, I don't know if you remember but I enquired about my great-grandfather William Brown, ex-Boer War veteran who re-enlisted and drowned at Blyth in 1916, well I found two articles in the NE press about that incident, would you like to see them?

Bill

[Graham Stewart]

Hi lads,

thanks for your help.

Chris, that's a bit more evidence that shows he died in 1916, will probably go straight to the infromthecold website, they'll probably have more clout than me.

Colin, yep I'll download that diary from the website.

Graham, once again, thanks for your advice, will do.

I mentioned a website for one of the dead that I found, this is it: http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/remember-on-this-day/1637-12-january-1916-pte-arthur-swindlehurst.htmlalso has a picture of him.

cheers

Bill

PS Graham, I don't know if you remember but I enquired about my great-grandfather William Brown, ex-Boer War veteran who re-enlisted and drowned at Blyth in 1916, well I found two articles in the NE press about that incident, would you like to see them?

Bill

Yes please - will you be able to attach them to a PM?

[billc52]

I would Graham, but being a bit thick, what's a PM?

[clk]

Hi Bill,

If you click on his avatar, it brings up a new window. Then by clicking on the button "Send me a message" you can send him a personal message.

Regards

Chris

[billc52]

thanks Chris

[billc52]

Downloaded the battalion war diary Colin, very interesting read, knowing what Uncle Charlie was doing in those last five months of his life. Wish there was more detail on the men who were killed or wounded but that was probably an impossible task. Would those details be in another document somewhere?

The trench raid lasted only 20 minutes and yielded 2 prisoners from a Saxon regiment. The battalion suffered six killed and 12 wounded. One sergeant killed whilst cutting the wire before the attack and one of the men in the enemy trenches. Most of the casualties were caused by the German artillery firing on no-man's-land and the British wire. After the raid some officers went out to assist in the bringing in of the wounded laying out in no-man's-land.

This now confuses the issue again relating to my original question, six killed according to the diary, but seven buried. Did one of the wounded die of his wounds?

thanks for your help again guys

Bill

[billc52]

Forgot to mention that volunteers from D Company were selected to go on the raid, commanded by Captain R.B. Singlehurst. I wonder how many of those men in the picture above went on that raid. Charlie Gater is front row, first left.