trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Here's one for the experts! My listing of Erstaz bayonets contains a fair few that are marked along the lines of - 'B.A.VII.7.129'. Some would interpret this as 'Bekleidungs Amt [AK] VII.7.[Komp]. [Waffe] 129"... Others would have - 'Betreibungs Amt [AK] VII.7.[Komp]. [Waffe].129'. So, a pretty straightforward question really - were either of these departments divided into companies or sections or both? Bear in mind that one example I have recorded is 'B.A.I.14.180' - could there be 14 'companies' in either department? My own feeling is that it is Betreibungsamt, but thanks in advance for any help and useful suggestions! Trajan PS: I have naturally checked Col.Joe's page on helmet markings but this kind of mark does not seem to be present on those artefacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 The term Betreibungsamt is non-existent in German (German) language! It is a term exclusively used and limited to Switzerland and would be the equivalent of "Gerichtsvollzieher" in Germany. Nothing to do with military terms. Bekleidungsamt it shall be for B.A. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2015 The term Betreibungsamt is non-existent in German (German) language! If that was the case my life would be easier, Egbert, BUT, Vorschrift uber das Bezeichnen und Nummeriren ... bereit zu den haltenden Waffen (DVE 185 - 1909), p. 49, has: "IV. Beispiele der Bezeichning… B. Brigade, Bezirk, Bäckeri, Brücken= (Train), Batterie, Betriebs, Biebrich, Bataillon.” (emphasis added...) DVE 185 has nothing for 'Bekleidungs Amt - but it is for weapons marking only... EDIT - SEE POST 34: I was looking for this under the wrong heading: it can be found under 'Stellvertretende Behörden"... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Sorry if I cannot be of help although I have 60 years of extensive German language experience and I only know what I know. P.S "Betriebs-.... has nothing to do with Swiss "Betreibungsamt", two different terms and meaning.... the word "Biebrich" I have never heard either in my life other than being the name of a district of Wiebaden city and the name of a castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Sorry if I cannot be of help although I have 60 years of extensive German language experience and I only know what I know. Come on Egbert, your not THAT old are you???!!! Seriously though, I probably got the idea of 'Betriebungsamt' from one of those not-so-well researched US of A publications... So, my mistake there... But, what would 'Betriebs' mean in an Imperial period weapons or military context? An operations office or department is all I can think of, but these markings indicate attachment to one of other Armee Korps... Would the operations office of an Armee Korps have its own company structure? I don't think so - but I simply don't know... Biebrich-Wetzlar was home to an Unteroffizier-schule, founded - I think - 1867 or so... Best regards, Trajan PS: By mistake I gave you the title and the page number for the reference in the 1877 document - but it is the same in the DVE 185 of 1909... I can scan and send these if you would like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Bekleidungsamt it shall be for B.A. Egbert is right. B.A. can stand for Bekleidungsamt, which means Clothing Depot ... However the B.A. can also stand for Bayerische Feld-Artillerie-Regiment, your choice. A lot of the interpretation really depends on the number of sub-units/waffes that are indicated ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Egbert is right. B.A. can stand for Bekleidungsamt, which means Clothing Depot ... However the B.A. can also stand for Bayerische Feld-Artillerie-Regiment, your choice. A lot of the interpretation really depends on the number of sub-units/waffes that are indicated ... SS, with the deepest respect, and at the risk of raising a wrathful storm, it would help if you read and assimilated all of the posts in the thread before rushing in to reply! In the OP I indicated that 'B.A.' could be 'Bekleidungsamt'. Where Egbert was 'right' was in objecting to my alternative suggestion of 'Betriebsamt', and I accepted that - but also made the point that according to the 1877 and 1909 Regulations, the letter 'B' was used as an abbreviation for 'Betriebs'... And if you had read the OP properly you would have seen that the example I gave was 'B.A.VII.7.129'.... The Roman numerals after the B.A. indicate an Armee Korps... How do you get the suggestion of a Bayerische Feld-Artillerie-Regiment from that? Finally, also in the OP, being aware of the need to know numbers of sub-units, etc., I gave the example of 'B.A.I.14.180', which according to the normal way of things would indicate a weapon belonging to a member of a 14th Company of the whatever-it-is of the Armee Korps I... My own feeling right now is that the unit-mark is for a 'Bekleidungsamt', as this is also given in DVE 185, but I have no idea as to how this or a 'Betriebs' amt / abteilung, or whatever, may have been organised - and I haven't seen anything in a quick look-over of Friedag that might help. That is why I started the OP with - "Here's one for the experts!"... Although I am, as always, happy to accept useful and constructive help and advice! TTFN, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 But, what would 'Betriebs' mean in an Imperial period weapons or military context? An operations office or department is all I can think of, but these markings indicate attachment to one of other Armee Korps... Would the operations office of an Armee Korps have its own company structure? I don't think so - but I simply don't know... 'Betriebs-' is most often seen with relation to the Eisenbahntruppen. A Betriebs-Abteilung (or -Kompagnie) was responsible for the operation of railways, as opposed to a Bau-Abteilung (or -Kompagnie) which built and/or repaired them. A Bekleidungsamt was indeed organised into companies, and above company level into Abteilungen. Based on the photos, postcards and odd bits of paperwork I've seen, these Abteilungen included multiple Betriebs-Abteilungen (yes, that word again!), a Tuchabteilung (which apparently controlled the supply of uniform cloth) and no doubt others. We do not know how many companies there may have been, but we know that Bekleidungsamt XIX in Leipzig had at least four Betriebs-Abteilungen (since I have examples of the Feldpoststempel for the fourth one). http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/BekleidungsamtXII_3Komp_Okt1915.jpg http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/BekleidungsamtXII_3Komp_Okt1915_bk.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 My own feeling is that it is Betreibungsamt, but thanks in advance for any help and useful suggestions! This is what I read in the OP, and your feeling at the time is obviously wrong, Egbert was right and as for the rest, you are not thankful at all for anything, suggestions or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2015 'Betriebs-' is most often seen with relation to the Eisenbahntruppen. A Betriebs-Abteilung (or -Kompagnie) was responsible for the operation of railways, as opposed to a Bau-Abteilung (or -Kompagnie) which built and/or repaired them. A Bekleidungsamt was indeed organised into companies, and above company level into Abteilungen. Based on the photos, postcards and odd bits of paperwork I've seen, these Abteilungen included multiple Betriebs-Abteilungen (yes, that word again!), a Tuchabteilung (which apparently controlled the supply of uniform cloth) and no doubt others. We do not know how many companies there may have been, but we know that Bekleidungsamt XIX in Leipzig had at least four Betriebs-Abteilungen (since I have examples of the Feldpoststempel for the fourth one). Thanks Andi, for sharing this information... So, maybe this, maybe that... Aaaaghh! I have collected eleven examples of this type of marking so far, for AK I (5 examples); II (one example); VII (three examples); and VIII (2 examples). Of these only one actually uses the initial 'K' to indicate a company - 'B.A.VIII.K.2.163'. The rest just have a 'company' number after the AK number, as in the examples I showed above. The 'company' numbers range from 2, the lowest I have, through 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11 and 14... TTFN, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2015 This is what I read in the OP, and your feeling at the time is obviously wrong, Egbert was right and as for the rest, you are not thankful at all for anything, suggestions or otherwise. Not two but three nations divided by a common language! Yes, I was wrong on Betriebungsamt - and acknowledged that immediately after Egbert corrected me, but you overlooked my self-correction... And as for being thankful, let's not get in a spat, but people who live in glass houses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 March , 2015 Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Ts ts ts, I am away for 6 hours and a flaming war has started.... A Betriebsamt is more responsible for infrastructural matters, but also for garbage disposal and such. A Betriebsamt would not typically deal with bayonets, but rather a Bekleidungsamt ...... and again, the term Betreibungsamt is not existent in Germany, but if you have a business in Switzerland and need to collect debt, you certainly are right there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2015 Ts ts ts, I am away for 6 hours and a flaming war has started.... Shades of 'Fawlty Towers' - I would guess that you know the relevant episode? But, more on topic... Thanks Egbert. It is just one of those minor niggles in scholarship which you will I think be familiar with... How do I define these ones? I am trying to put the Ersatz series of bayonets into their appropriate context (who used them and when), and I have already established that much of the received judgement on this class of weapon is faulty. So, determining who these particular ones belonged to is not exactly vital to my argument (this or that, they are units that in my day US of A soldiers classified as REMF's!), but it just helps in clarifying what is what and who got what type of Ersatz... All will be revealed one day, when I have completed my study! With regard to these ones, I was thinking originally more on the lines of Betriebungsamt, until you corrected me (Schweizer deutsch ist ein anderer sprache, nicht wahr?), but after discovering that Bekleidungsamt is in the DVE 185, then I go along with that (for the time being!). As I said, just a niggle - but as many as 14 'companies' in a clothing factory? Dass ist fast unglaublich! Trajan PS: Verzeihst du mir meine schlechtes deutsch - ich mehr praxis brauche nach 40 jahren! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 I have now had a fairly good look at this BA abbreviation usage, and can honestly say I don't know what it actually means, in this context (of bayonet marking) However from experience with these kinds of things, and the way Germans did things, there are always other possibilities. First impressions are not always right. So yes if this marking was found on a bluse, pickelhaube, feldmutze, belt or holster (that was issued via a Clothing Depot) than yes "Bekleidungsamt" it would be. As in many mysteries there are always 'red herrings' to contend with, and I believe this is one. The other is the "Armee-Korps" business - not necessarily correct. Looking just at one example here 'B.A.I.14.180' we can see the 'parent unit' must comprise ~2520 men bearing bayonets (calculated as 14 Komp. x 180 Waffe.?) The usage of Roman numerals can also be as a Bataillon identifier number. So we have a quite large wartime unit (viz ersatz bayonets) not regularly described.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Looking just at one example here 'B.A.I.14.180' we can see the 'parent unit' must comprise ~2520 men bearing bayonets (calculated as 14 Komp. x 180 Waffe.?) The usage of Roman numerals can also be as a Bataillon identifier number. So we have a quite large wartime unit (viz ersatz bayonets) not regularly described.? As a photo collector with more photos (all of them wartime) of Bekleidungsamt XII and XIX than is probably sane or healthy, I believe that it is entirely plausible that these units did reach such a size at wartime strength (when, incidentally, the official designation became 'Kriegsbekleidungsamt'). They had both a company and a battalion (Abteilung) organisation, although weirdly the Feldpoststempel and Absenderblock always mention only the Kompagnie or the Abteilung number and not both. Available evidence from Kriegsbekleidungsamt XIX suggests a strength of at least four 'battalions'. This amount of manpower is understandable given that each Kriegsbekleidungsamt was responsible for managing the supply of kit for an entire corps district and all of its field and home service units. Here is (I believe) the entire 3. Komp. / Kriegsbekleidungsamt XII in October 1916. No bayonets in this case, but my co-author has a photo where the men are all wearing (I think) the obsolete 1871 bayonet with their pristine Dunkelblau uniforms. It was after all a regulation part of walking-out dress (and the bayonet issue number would be taken down by the civil or military police if they got in trouble while out!). http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/BekleidungsamtXII_3Komp_Okt1916.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2015 I have now had a fairly good look at this BA abbreviation usage, and can honestly say I don't know what it actually means, in this context (of bayonet marking)... Looking just at one example here 'B.A.I.14.180' we can see the 'parent unit' must comprise ~2520 men bearing bayonets (calculated as 14 Komp. x 180 Waffe.?) ... The usage of Roman numerals can also be as a Bataillon identifier number. So we have a quite large wartime unit (viz ersatz bayonets) not regularly described.? Too true on the 'what it actually means'! But, we'll get there in the end (inshallah!). I am naturally basing my readings, etc., on what the German documents say, and "Betriebs" seems to fit best - at the moment! But remember that with Waffe numbers, IIRC - I will have to check later as I am really busy right now - then the numbering sequence continued as each new one was issued, and so weapon 180 represents the 180th weapon issued to that unit, not the weapon of the 180th person in that unit - but I must check on that... Again, I need to check on the Bataillon numbers re: use of Latin numbers... I can't recall such off-hand, but this being St.Paddy's Day I am surprised I can recall anything at the moment! TTFN, Trajan EDIT: Andi, yours came in as I was writing - looks very interesting information and I'll get back to it later - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Ok - guys- one last time from my side: BA or B.A. is Bekleidungsamt, nothing else, NOT any kind of Bekleidungsothergysmos ! A Bekleidungsamt issued uniform, uniform parts, Seitengewehre, helmets- all kind of equipment the soldiers needed for their proper personal usage. If you need picture convincibility just google for "Bekleidungsamt and Seitengewehr". OMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Ok - guys- one last time from my side: BA or B.A. is Bekleidungsamt, nothing else, NOT any kind of Bekleidungsothergysmos ! A Bekleidungsamt issued uniform, uniform parts, Seitengewehre, helmets- all kind of equipment the soldiers needed for their proper personal usage. If you need picture convincibility just google for "Bekleidungsamt and Seitengewehr". OMG Na Ja, und stimmt! And so another new one to play with - thanks Egbert! Following his suggestion led me to the Blankwaffenforum (which I hardly ever use, sorry!), and to an EB 47, marked "B.A.VIII.3 (or 8).K,12", which I think is what Egbert wanted me to see,,, The discussants have identified this as "Bekleidungsamt VIII. Armeekorps": well, that's only their opinion as to the interpretation of BA - proof is still lacking, and will probably never be forthcoming, but I am thinking that Bekleidungs makes better sense than Betriebs. Just to note that there seemed to be some doubt on that site as to whether it was marked to a 3.K or an 8.K, but the photograph is reasonably clear and a 3.K it is - in my humble opinion! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 I agree there is plenty of room for confusion with this marking. The B.A mark is commonly seen on clothing and equipment, where it is accepted as an "issue" marking. The format of this type of marking is critical in this case. Pick up any piece of German period clothing or headwear, and you will most likely spot a 'BAVIII' style stamp. This type of issue stamp shows that the item of clothing/equipment was procured & distributed through the Bekleidungsamt (Clothing Depot) of the Armee-Korps Nr.8 However the markings described on the ersatz bayonets do not show this format at all, they include Kompanie and Waffe numbers that are NOT seen on clothing etc. And I think it agreed that the normal Bekleidungsamt is not known as a front-line fighting unit needing lots of rifles and bayonets.! But support units did carry sidearms. Normally the support units would receive obsolete type Seitengewehr to carry with them as part of their 'walking-out' uniform. This is different to an active-use weapon. So I have been scouring the net looking for what other possibilities may exist. I believe the unit could be a near Bataillon size 'fighting force' but not of the 'regular' type. Along those lines I have come up with some possible answers (feel free to scoff & shout 'burn the witch') Start by thinking, what were the Germans reknowned for.? What were the Germans reknowned for in the trench warfare phase of the war.? At the cost of many Allied lives they were known for the quality construction of trenches. So who was it that built all these superior trenches and fortifications - there are parallels in the British Army. They were the Army Field Companies of the Royal Engineers. They were like the modern Combat Engineer, working in the front-line areas building fortifications, and they were armed to defend themselves against attack if required. I know this as I have a P1903 bayonet that is clearly marked to such a wartime raised unit, that saw active service during the Somme battles in 1916. (Background info) Anyway FWIW, here is my suggestion as a possibility ... how about Bau-Pionier Abteilung or just Bau Abteilung. (Bataillon sized wartime Construction Engineering units.?) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2015 I agree there is plenty of room for confusion with this marking. ... Anyway FWIW, here is my suggestion as a possibility ... how about Bau-Pionier Abteilung or just Bau Abteilung. (Bataillon sized wartime Construction Engineering units.?) Too right that it is one marking wide open for confusion! Thanks for putting the thinking cap on for this - I haven't come across such a unit as a 'Bau-Pionier Abteilung...', but worth bearing in mind! Bekleidungsamt still remains possible, though, as these did have a military complement. Whatever it is, it's the apparent excessive number of companies that I don't get - as many as 14? I need to check to see if I have any regular bayonets with BA numbers that high... TTFN, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 Yes the good old Bekleidungsamt is of course the most available answer, and is a known abbreviation as BA in the Clothing and Equipment departments ... BUT Does this automatically make it the answer when looking at unit identification markings found on the common-issue ersatz bayonet.? REALLY ... I don't think so. It's funny but I have seen this same story being rolled out as an explanation for the B.A. markings for quite a few years now. I have never really believed in it at all. So this thread has got me thinking more about it, and I have managed to do a little research into the other possibilities. I can report that Bauabteilung looks good.! This evening I have found a wartime dated Feldpost card (see below) marked to such a unit. And guess what numeral identifier is used, yep the Roman numeral II. You can see the 1917 date in the regular position, while the Unit Identification is both hand-written at the top (red circle) and clearly stamped in purple at the bottom. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 Hello, A Bauabteilung did not have companies! They were a (temporary) staff that organised the works in a certain front sector. They had troops under their command (Armierungsbataillone and - Kompagnien, Zivilarbeiter, Kriegsgefangenen, ...) as much as was considered enough for the works. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 Here is an interesting LINK very much related. Seems others are asking the same type of questions. And the wartime term was Kriegsbekleidungsamt (abbrev K.B.A) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2015 ... It's funny but I have seen this same story being rolled out as an explanation for the B.A. markings for quite a few years now. I have never really believed in it at all.... So this thread has got me thinking more about it, and I have managed to do a little research into the other possibilities. I can report that Bauabteilung looks good.... I'd certainly love to see any other discussion on the BA markings! I haven't really tried German sources yet, though... Hello,A Bauabteilung did not have companies! Thanks Jan, so are we back on the drawing board? Oh-oh, a new reply coming in... EDIT: And that link looks useful - I had though of writing to Joe on this as he has been really helpful in the past on other things, but I thogh I'd give him a break! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2015 So, the link SS sent includes a post card of 1914/15 showing the workers of [caption] "Werkstatte der 14, 15, 16/IV K.B.A. II A.K," - so presumably 'sections' 14, 15, 16, of KBA II AK - nobody on that link seems to have come up with an explanation for the "IV"... I haven't gone through my Friedag yet, and I don't have access to a Kraus, Die deutsche Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg Uniformierung und Ausrüstung - 1914 bis 1918, which apparently may have more information on how the (K)BA were organised. All I have garnered so far is that in 1914, according to Franz (IIRC), NCO's in Bekleidungsamte had 71/84's... Perhaps the sections were considered as 'companies'? Remember, weapons numbering was continuous, so a high weapon number does not mean a high number of troops... That said, can a limited number of NCO's really have lost and so had replaced up to 195 weapons? The mind is boggling... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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