Artillery ammunition 1915

[Old Tom]

Today Times includes an article by Allan Mallinson about Neuve Chapelle which describes some of the reasons for the shortage of appropriate artillery ammunition. In particular to the influence of the MGO General von Donop. Two aspects of this seem to merit further discussion:

Pre war plans did not foresee the high rate of ammunition usage that occurred, and hence had not made provision to increase the industrial production capacity. The MGO, in the article, is said to have been worried at the safety implications of trying to increase capacity quickly. I suppose this is simply another example of the failure of government to realise the likely form of a European war.

Shrapnel was the only nature of ammunition available and the need for HE was pressing. A French General, St Claire Deville, who had been partly responsible for the 75 mm field gun (incidentally referred to as recoilless, a term which I thought was of WW2 vintage), had come to London with a new design of a HE shell which could be manufactured quickly. Von Donop deemed this design to be unsafe and the proposal was not followed up. His restraining hand prevented an even greater number of ammunition failures than those which occurred as result of production by factories pressed into production. I had not heard of the General Devilles proposal, can anyone enlarge?

Old Tom

[nigelfe]

There is no doubt that pre-war no one had a clue as to the possible arty ammo expenditure rate. Easy to criticise, but there were no precedents and it was assumed that war would be lots of manoeuvre, as in 1870. The logistic capabilities to deliver lots of arty ammo in mobile war did not exist.

Shrapnel was the only ammo available in 1914 for 13 & 18-pr, because that was the most effective thing to use against targets in the open, which is what manoeuvre war meant.

[calibre792x57.y]

In fact H.E. shells for the 18 pdr appeared at the front as early as October 1914, with the notorious No. 100 fuze which is said to have gone from design to production in ten days! - SW

[Old Tom]

Points taken; however there were the ACW and the RussoJapanese wars which might have changed perception. Any view on the French design?

Old Tom

[michaeldr]

Was it the design of the shell, or was it the method of production which was new?

see https://books.google.co.il/books?id=sBm-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=General,+St+Claire+Deville+new+HE+Shell&source=bl&ots=TKErnCT63D&sig=KYDSzn19CQF2tDe1Y7BTTKYtW8k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GNUFVeyOMZL1aPn2gPgJ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=General%2C%20St%20Claire%20Deville%20new%20HE%20Shell&f=false

[nigelfe]

IIRC 4.5 How carried both HE and Shrapnel, so they must have had an impact fuze (not forgetting HE was the only field ammo available for the RGA).

[michaeldr]

A French General, St Claire Deville, who had been partly responsible for the 75 mm field gun (incidentally referred to as recoilless, a term which I thought was of WW2 vintage), had come to London with a new design of a HE shell which could be manufactured quickly. Von Donop deemed this design to be unsafe and the proposal was not followed up. His restraining hand prevented an even greater number of ammunition failures than those which occurred as result of production by factories pressed into production. I had not heard of the General Devilles proposal, can anyone enlarge?

Details from OH Min of Munitions Vol.I, p.100/1

18^th October 1914 Lloyd George, Sir John Simon & Lord Reading conferred with Gen St. Clair Deville & Captain Cambefort (a Lyons manufacturer). The French had successfully begun to expand shell production the previous month.

France was divided into districts, each directed by a prominent engineering employer. The district took the contract for a specific type of shell and they then split the production of that contract between several firms.

It worked well for the French,

However, the British thought that only the established arms manufacturers could be trusted to introduce new firms into the supply chain, by careful sub-contracting

“The necessity of organising all the trade resources for supplying our wants was fully recognised at this period, but it was considered that instead of attempting to organise centrally from the War Office it was much better that the main orders should be given to the Ordnance Factories and large armament firms and that they themselves organise and expand to supplement what they could do with existing buildings and machinery.”

This was von Dunop's view as the MGO expressed in his memorandum at the time

I think that the newspaper account may have confused a new method of production with a new type of shell

[Old Tom]

Michaeldr,

Interesting. I suppose that the outcome, exemplified by the number of faulty rounds in July 1916, was a shortage of expertese in industry and

difficult to see how that could have been avoided.

Niglefe,

I would defer to you on artillery matters but my reading indicates that shrapnel was available for 4.5 How and the 60 pdr and I thought that

was what they went to war with and there is the commonly expressed view that the BEF had, at first, only shrapnel.

Old Tom

[nigelfe]

4.5 definitely had HE (and shrapnel) at the outbreak of war.

[CharlieBris]

The French Army had an appalling time with premature projectile explosions in 1915 and 1916. I've read (somewhere) that the issued ammunition was

responsible for more casualties in the artillery units at this time than enemy action. Eventually, and this seems to have been a scandal at the time, the problems with

the shells were tracked back to poor or non-existent quality control in some of the sub contracting firms.

The Mle 1897 was often referred to as "recoilless" although this was more propaganda than anything else. The gun would absorb all of the recoil provided

the air pressure and oil volumes were correct in the recoil absorber/recuperator and the gun was sitting on flat dry ground with the braking system (abatage) engaged.

It has been noted the Mle 1897 would slide back anything up to 2m on wet, slippery ground. I agree that from a modern perspective "recoilless" refers

to guns developed between the wars that used additional propellant to counter the recoil forces.

Regards,

Charlie