General question re: eligibility for WW1 campaign medals....

[headgardener]

Regarding the award of the 1914-15 star (many thanks to SPOF and BJay for their contributions):

I'd originally asked whether the person in question had to be on the establishment of a unit serving abroad during the relevant time period. I also asked what would that mean for anyone who served abroad in some capacity yet who was not part of the establishment of a unit serving abroad.

SPOF pointed out that entitlement to a 15 star appears to have been based on having left 'home shores' during the relevant time period. No-one's yet made any comments regarding people who served abroad yet who were not part of the establishment of a unit serving in that particular theatre. Martin G gave the example of the King being awarded a 15 trio - this seems just to be a 'courtesy' award (much like the RAF 'wings' that he wore on his uniform....!).

Does anyone know of any other relevant examples?

[NigelS]

I believe awards of medals to the war time Prime Ministers were courtesy ones sanctioned by the King, and nothing to do with any trips to the front. From The Times of Jan 8 1920:

At 10, Downing-street, last night Mr Winston Churchill and the members of the Army Council waited upon the Prime Minister to present him with 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and the Victory Medals, approved by the King.
The proceedings, which were private, lasted only a few minutes. The speeches of Mr. Churchill, who presented the medals, and of the Prime Minister were quite informal.
We understand that the King has approved the special award of the three war medals to Mr Asquith.

some light might be shed, although not by any means conclusive, on the award of 1914 stars to those serving on hospital ship from two more pieces of Times reporting:

July 17th '18

Mr. J. Macpherson, in a written answer, states that the personnel of hospital ships are not entitled to the 1914 Star.

and from four years later (Aug 3rd, 1922)

Merchant Service And Awards Of 1914 Star.

The Imperial Merchant Service Guild has had further correspondence with the War Office on the subject of the award of the 1914-15 Star to captains and officers of hospital ships. It appears that under the regulations every one who served in a hospital ship within the prescribed period was entitled to the decoration, except those forming the ship’s personnel, which is regarded as involving much injustice to members of the Guild. The latest correspondence, which has involved a reference to the India Office, has resulted in an official letter, which notifies that in the case of the Sicilia only the medical and nursing personnel are entitled to the 1914 Star, so that the official decision remains. Commenting on a position that gives the probationer nurse or the humble orderly a decoration denied to the master of a hospital ship the Guild Gazette observes: “In a position of this kind words fail one altogether.”

NigelS

[BJanman]

Are there any further examples of HS personnel being awarded 14 or 14-15 stars, I wonder.....?

Lt/Col A B Cottell served as Principal Medical Officer on the Yacht 'Albion', which went over in October 1914. I've just checked his MIC - it looks as if he applied for the 1914 Star but it actually states on the MIC that he did not qualify for a 1914 Star because he was on board a hospital ship.

I'll see if I can trace any others, and also see if I can find out if the two who received the 1914 Star actually got off and went to another medical unit. Seems strange they mentioned No 1 Hospital Ship on Maj Matthew's MIC though, as I thought they wrote the unit to highlight why the 1914 Star was eligible - if that makes sense.

Barbara

[Neil Mackenzie]

Charles A Rowland (British Red Cross and St John's Ambulance) has two dates on his MIC for date of entry into a Theatre of War:-

 

The 1914-15 Star entry is dated 5/7/1915

The BWM and Victory medal entries are dated 17/7/1915

 

Why would they not all be the same?

 

Neil

Edit: I have just realised that the British Red Cross database shows his 'date of engagement' as also being 5 July 1915. So, if the earlier date is right, then either he was engaged by the BRC in the UK and went out the same day (which seems unlikely) or he was already in France when they took him on.

 

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening 

The Ribbon for the 1914 Star was issued to British many soldiers who were not entitled to the 1914 Star award. An Army Order confirms this  in the Times news paper

Monday, May 27th 1918, page 5, Issue 41800.

An Army Order states that it has been brought to notice that certain individuals who are not entitled to the award of the 1914 Star are wearing the ribbon of this decoration.The wearing of this ribbon by Officers and soldiers is governed by paragraph 1.738 Kings Regulations( which deals with the wearing of the ribbon pending the issue of the medal).

General Officers Commanding will take the necessary steps to ensure that the ribbon is worn only by those entitled to the star...

This shows that the ribbon for the 1914 Star must have been being worn by May 1918, and some time before that.

The 2nd Battalion H L I were issued theirs on the 20th March 1918, and the 2nd Battalion Ox & Bucks received theirs on the 28th February 1918.

Regards 

Andy 

[horatio2]

After 31 January 1918 for Admiralty issues.

[NigelS]

50 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

Good Evening 

The Ribbon for the 1914 Star was issued to British many soldiers who were not entitled to the 1914 Star award. An Army Order confirms this  in the Times news paper

Monday, May 27th 1918, page 5, Issue 41800.

An Army Order states that it has been brought to notice that certain individuals who are not entitled to the award of the 1914 Star are wearing the ribbon of this decoration.The wearing of this ribbon by Officers and soldiers is governed by paragraph 1.738 Kings Regulations( which deals with the wearing of the ribbon pending the issue of the medal).

General Officers Commanding will take the necessary steps to ensure that the ribbon is worn only by those entitled to the star...

This shows that the ribbon for the 1914 Star must have been being worn by May 1918, and some time before that.

The 2nd Battalion H L I were issued theirs on the 20th March 1918, and the 2nd Battalion Ox & Bucks received theirs on the 28th February 1918.

Regards 

Andy 

 

The question here is whether the Ribbon/Riband was actually 'issued' by the Army in error, or had been obtained by the men wearing it through unofficial channels.  The Times reporting doesn't indicate which, just that some men not entitled to wear it were.

From another Times story of Thursday 15th March 1917 (issue 41427, Pg 5) It appears that getting hold of ribbon/riband unofficially even for a VC was possible.  The reporting tells of the Court-Martial of Driver William Campbell, Australian Imperial Forces,  for wearing the riband of the VC and the chevrons of a sergeant. The War Office gave evidence that a VC had not been awarded, nor  a letter of notification stating such an entitlement had ever been sent. Campbell who had  been wounded in an action where he had rallied men after taking charge when their officer had been killed, said that he had received a letter addressed to "Sergeant Campbell, VC" from General Johnstone at the Australian HQ in London enclosing a VC riband and giving him the authority to wear it. A letter from Major Browne APM was produced in evidence giving that it appeared that Campbell had been the victim of a practical Joke.   Campbell was subsequently found 'Not Guilty' and acquitted. (Campbell had, apparently, been instructed, to take on the role of sergeant by an officer when his had been killed and given the stripes of the dead man to wear)

The Times of  Monday, Dec 24, 1917; (Issue 41669, pg. 8) gives:

Riband of the 1914 Star

The issue and wearing of the Riband of the “1914 Star” form the subject of a new Army Council Instruction. It is notified that preliminary issue of 4in of riband has been sanctioned for each individual now serving who is entitled to the decoration. The “1914 Star” is to be considered a war medal, and must be worn as such. The Riband will be worn with the red edge on the right – i.e., with the red edge furthest from the left shoulder.

Although, there can be no certainty that the ribands were actually issued immediately after the issue of this instruction - there were, apparently, supply problems in the beginning  - it would have been the earliest possible date that one could have been worn

 

NigelS

 

 

 

[nhclark]

Not sure whether anyone is still interested in this thread, but...

Those who were deemed ineligible for the award of a particular medal - for example the 1914 Star - included personnel sent to France by the British Red Cross and Order of St. John, both before and after the formation of their Joint War Committee on 20th October 1914, for example trained nurses who worked in French hospitals. Just as examples:

Lillian Maud Trotter (my mother's cousin) was a trained nurse who went to Dinard as part of the 10th BRCS unit on 10th October 1914 and worked there  until March 1915 when she was transferred to the hospital at Malasisse, St. Omer, which cared for Belgian refugees suffering from enteric fever. Early in June 1915 Malasisse was taken over by the War Office to become No. 7 General Hospital for British troops, and all Red Cross nurses left Malasisse by 12th June. Lillian transferred to No.2 BRCS Hospital at Rouen, where she cared for British and Empire soldiers for the first time, and 12th June was the date on which she qualified for the 1914-15 Star.

Georgiana Marie Scott-White, who led the BRCS Dinard party. One of her medal cards at TNA specifically states her ineligibility for the award of a 1914 Star as follows: "Ineligble. Did not serve on est. of a Unit of BEF during spec. period auth."

Some 582 trained nurses were on duty in France and Belgium by the end of 1914. Most of these would be as per Trotter and Scott-White above.

 

Unfortunately the scans at TNA of the medal cards for these personnel are of poor quality, are in B&W and the backs of cards were not scanned. Some interesting detail is lost. There are words on the card of Scott-White that I cannot decipher.

 

The medal cards at TNA for Asquith and Lloyd George show that they did indeed receive the British War and Victory medals.

 

Noel

 

[chaz]

sorry to resurrect an old thread but

Ive just received a BWM to 17578 WHEELER G. KSLI.

its his sole entitlement, on his page of the roll there are 5 other names, the Victory Medal and/or being crossed out at the top.

of the 6 of them 4 inc George are noted on right hand side as 'Serving' not the usual class Z or KIA or an  other.

being 2nd K.S.L.I  Im only able to find two possibilities, a George and a George Alfred who was serving in Mayo, Ireland.

 

originally in India until the end of 1914, fought at the Somme then ended up at the end of 1915 packing its bags for Salonika. ending up back home via Turkey, the Black Sea and the Irish uprising end in 1921

from the web site their battle honours

2nd Battalion Battle Honours:

France and Flanders 1915 ; Macedonia 1915-18 ; Gravenstafel ; Ypres 1915* ; St. Julien ; Frezenberg* ; Bellewaerde. (7)

 

being a Serjeant and presumably a 1914 enroller , from this I would have assumed he was entitled to a Victory as well? 

[rolt968]

5 minutes ago, chaz said:

sorry to resurrect an old thread but

Ive just received a BWM to 17578 WHEELER G. KSLI.

its his sole entitlement, on his page of the roll there are 5 other names, the Victory Medal and/or being crossed out at the top.

of the 6 of them 4 inc George are noted on right hand side as 'Serving' not the usual class Z or KIA or an  other.

being 2nd K.S.L.I  Im only able to find two possibilities, a George and a George Alfred who was serving in Mayo, Ireland.

 

originally in India until the end of 1914, fought at the Somme then ended up at the end of 1915 packing its bags for Salonika. ending up back home via Turkey, the Black Sea and the Irish uprising end in 1921

from the web site their battle honours

2nd Battalion Battle Honours:

France and Flanders 1915 ; Macedonia 1915-18 ; Gravenstafel ; Ypres 1915* ; St. Julien ; Frezenberg* ; Bellewaerde. (7)

 

being a Serjeant and presumably a 1914 enroller , from this I would have assumed he was entitled to a Victory as well? 

Although that is the route the battalion followed; did he go with them? Did he stay in India for some reason which would qualify him for a BWM but not a Victory Medal?

[chaz]

yes, thanks to Little Bob, his papers are under G.A his middle initial which was not on his MIC, he was in India at the outbreak then home for 49 days so would explain no star or victory. ( should be a nice LSGC out there for him instead).